Christopher Kimball: This is Milk Street Radio from PRX. I’m your host Christopher Kimball.
It’s our annual Thanksgiving special, and we’re dedicating the hour to solving your toughest problems, like what to do when your apple pie leaks. I love a pie that bubbles over personally, as long as it doesn’t get all of your oven. We figure out how to make a turkey in just two hours. For those people who pop that Turkey in at 10am and three o’clock, you’re still sitting there waiting for it to be done. This is a great, great option. Plus, we get a Thanksgiving poetry reading from Adam Gopnik.
Adam Gopnik: The perpetual themes of the best poetry of food are, I think, Christopher, the themes of American Thanksgiving.
CK: That’s all coming up later on the show. But to start us off, I’m joined by Food Network Star Jet Tila to answer some of your cooking questions. Hey, Jet, welcome back to Milk Street.
Jet Tila: Chris, what an honor to be here, man. It really feels like Thanksgiving now that I’m on with you.
CK: Well, I had to have you back because you have to answer all the questions I can’t answer. Be very helpful.
JT: I don’t believe that I’m here for comic relief because you’re the sage and I’m the comic sidekick to the sage.
CK: It’s a good pairing.
JT: Oh, hey, I’m just happy to be riding shotgun with you. Man, let’s do this.
CK: Let’s take a call.
JT: Welcome to Milk Street who’s calling?
Caller: Hi. This is Victoria calling from Beverly, Massachusetts.
JT: Hi, Victoria.
Caller: Hi there.
JT: How can we help you today?
Caller I’m looking for side dish inspiration for Thanksgiving, while taking into account a range of dietary restrictions and personalities. Every year. Yeah, Oh, definitely.
CK: I know the list already. You don’t even have to tell me
JT: I heard the grumbles from Chris.
CK: Well, there, there’s a dairy free vegan right?
JT: What are your some of your challenges? Yeah, I think we all can commiserate.
Caller: Yep, you are right there. You’re hitting the big hits. So yeah, my brother is vegan and straight edge. My now sister-in-law eats meat, but cannot eat gluten or dairy, and we work to avoid soy if possible. My parents and uncle have no restrictions, but they are a little less adventurous, and they’re definitely more sensitive to spice heat. And then there’s me and my husband, no restrictions, and we’re quite adventurous, and I would love any inspiration that comes to mind for you.
CK: Oh, boy. When did this get so complicated? Like 30 years ago, like you didn’t have 12 different things you can and can’t do? Well, okay, first category are traditional things with different flavorings. So sweet potato casserole flavor with bay leaves and vanilla, for example, recipe we did a couple years ago. It’s a little different, but it’s not wildly different. Roasting whole heads of cauliflower or cabbage is another thing you can do. We have lots of recipes for that, all sorts of things you can put on it, like tahini, etc. I had a roasted cabbage in Tel Aviv a couple years ago with a skordalia sauce, sort of a potato white sauce, which was outstanding charring, like charred brussels sprouts, you know, get a really good char in them you could do in a cast iron skillet. Or you could do it in a skillet and then throw in the oven with a simple spices. A dressing of some kind of vinaigrette or other dressing on it. Those are just a few things you can do that would be nice as well. Jet?
JT: You know, I think it’s just a sign of the modern times. I think all of us cooks are always, you know, we’re wanting to accommodate our guests and keep them really happy, but I’m listening and really vibing on what Chris is saying. First, I think what wins is cooking to that kind of plant based because most of that will knock out dairy, that’ll knock out meat. And then what I like to do is make sure my guests that have restrictions have a centerpiece, because they can’t, oh, man, I can’t eat that turkey. Can’t eat that gravy. So, I’m roasting like kabocha squash. I’m roasting some really great either Japanese yams and then I’m using kind of plant-based cheeses nowadays, like, there’s a lot of ricottas out there. There’s a lot of, you know, wonderful kind of creamy crème fraishe kind of things. And I’m also cooking things that have a lot of inherent sweetness and flavor. And then we’re bringing in alums, you know, chutneys, leeks. So, I think putting together these kind of, you know, star pieces so your guests with restrictions feel special, but you’re not killing yourself. And a lot of these roasted items and grilled and charred items can be done way ahead of time. And, you know, also cauliflower steaks, I’m doing a lot. So, cutting them into like three, four-inch wide, entire sections, bread crumbs, roasting them, finishing them in the oven, and then applying some plant based fats, butters, etc., you’re really going to create a special experience for all your guests that way, and you’re going to nail all the restrictions.
CK: I think Ottolenghi, in one of his first books, took butternut squash, cut it into big, thick rounds, like inch thick rounds, and roasted it with spices, all those great spices, instead of doing a squash casserole, it’s just an easy way to do something different. And then maybe you put a little yogurt on it, or Labneh or something with spices to finish.
JT: Yeah, Ottolenghi and then Tal Ronnen the Crossroads
cookbook, which is a full plant-based cookbook. Those two, you would get a ton of ideas that would be fantastic.
CK: And the other book, The Six Seasons
remember that one? (Oh, yeah, yeah) that won the James Beard a few years ago for vegetarian vegetable recipes. That’s a really good book.
Caller: Amazing. These are our fantastic ideas. And I especially love those squash face. Those are things that are just so popular within everybody in the family. So being able to have it be something that is special for those guests and also something that’s accessible for everybody else. I’m really excited about these ideas.
CK: Or you could just put miniature marshmallows on everything. That’s the other you know, you could really just dive into the deep end and go for it.
JT: Go all in
Caller: absolutely
CK: Well, you know, I was doing that sweet potato casserole a couple weeks ago in the office, and I was going like, I kind of miss those marshmallows. I do and I don’t. I mean, I really want to just trash it up at the end and just go for it.
JT: I think that makes Thanksgiving better.
CK: You know, it’s like, this is where I came (that’s exactly right) These are my people, marshmallow people.
Caller: I’m one of those people
JT: Except Victoria is going to grab the vegan marshmallows.
CK: Victoria, hopefully you’ll have a great Thanksgiving.
Caller: Thank you so much. I really appreciate these ideas, and I hope you have a great Thanksgiving as well.
JT: Happy Thanksgiving. Happy holidays.
Caller: Take care. Thank you.
CK: Welcome to Milk Street. Who’s calling?
Caller: Hi. This is Jamie.
CK: Hi, Jamie, how can we help you?
Caller: This year, I’m solving Thanksgiving just with my husband, and so we are looking forward to just having the whole four days to cook, eat and relax. I’m wondering if you had any ideas of a project that we can take on, and we’re looking for something maybe little nontraditional, little adventurous.
CK: For desserts, that’s really where you get into a project. I’ve done steam puddings, you know, for Christmas or the holidays, which I really love. They take time to steam, but not too much time to put together. Or, do you know, a French apple tart with thinly sliced apples, or do something with puff pastry. And finally, gougère, you know, this little choux pastry that you make eclairs out of you add cheese to that and nuts, and that’s something to eat with wine. Jet. You probably have some better ideas than mine.
JT: I doubt they’re better, but your question, it resonates because I think everyone is like, oh my God, I’ve done 100 Thanksgivings. What do I do differently? I’ll give you just a few things that we do in the Tila home. So, if you really want a project, research, ballotine I really love doing ballotines, because it’s basically taking the bones out of the turkey, creating a stuffing, instead of a dressing, putting the stuffing in. And imagine, if you will, rolling, you know the best parts, the skin, the white meat, the dark meat, around and making almost like a roll, right, stitching it together. And then when you roast that and you pull it out of the oven, one slice of ballotine has everything in it, the crispy skin, the meat and the dressing all in and then you create your favorite gravies. I think gravies are an essential in my opinion.
CK: I’d also suggest going on YouTube and watching Jacques Pepin bone a chicken.
Caller: Yes, I was going to ask how am I going to do this?
CK: I mean, with the way he does that, he does it in two minutes and he doesn’t break a sweat.
JT: He’s such a master and, you know, I think it’s a really fun project. And because you have four days, you’re assuring yourself some good success, instead of trying to do it the night before.
Caller: Those all sound exciting.
CK: That’s at least four days of work right there, right?
Caller: I was going to say, I think I’m going do gougère one day, and then I’ll go snack out those while I’m making the balantine. (Those aren’t hard, by the way those are easy) get some sweet potatoes going. It will all be fantastic.
JT: Just tell us when to come over, because you’re going to have a pretty rock star Thanksgiving.
Caller: All right
CK: Jamie, have a great Thanksgiving.
Caller: Thank you so much, you too.
CK: Our pleasure. This is Milk Street Radio. If you need help in the kitchen this holiday season, give us a call anytime. Our number 855-426-9843 one more time 855-426-9843 or simply email us at questions at Milk Street radio.com. Welcome to Milk Street. Who’s calling?
Caller: Hi. My name is Kelly
CK: Hi, Kelly. How are you?
Caller: I’m awesome. How are you?
CK: I’m good. How about that? That’s that’s two steps below awesome. So how can we help you?
Caller: Well, I was wondering for Thanksgiving, what’s the minimum dishes that I need to make? Because I always end up going overboard and we’re making way too much. What is the minimum?
CK: That’s a great question. I think about this every year, and I’ve actually managed to pare it down. So, my list is turkey, mashed potatoes, gravy, which I think is probably the most important thing almost and a cranberry relish, which is the recipe on the back of the bag with a little salt added. Those four things seem to me to be essential. And then throw in maybe one vegetable of some kind, we can move on to dessert later but what is your short list?
Caller: I don’t have a short list. That’s the problem. My list is long.
CK: Well, you kill yourself for two- or three-days cooking, and you get nine things sitting on the table, and three of the things barely get touched, and you feel afterwards like, well, why did I go to all that trouble? Are there dishes that your family absolutely demands you make?
Caller: Sometimes, sometimes it’s, well, you didn’t make grandma’s cranberry relish, so they’re not going to eat it. Or I did make the things that they would eat every year, and they’re like, we don’t want those. We eat those every year.
CK: Oh, you got a tough crowd here,
Caller: Yes, we’re going to have to make some decisions here
CK: I sort of feel like I’m going to take care of you. I’m going to cook for you. I’m going to make this a nice meal. I don’t need to have everybody check off all the boxes on everything. I just don’t worry about it anymore, maybe because I’m just getting old. But Jet, I mean, I would bet you’re not getting permission to leave a dish off the menu.
JT: Yeah, amen to that. Chris. Kelly, hi, by the way, a couple questions. How many people are you expecting for Thanksgiving?
Caller: Well, you know, when it’s my house, like, let’s say less than 10.
JT: Okay, I think Chris nailed it on. Get your bases covered. We talked about, obviously a turkey. I mean, you need cranberry, you need gravy. I think you need a dressing, if you’re not stuffing, and then maybe one classic. But I’m always looking at it like, how many guests am I serving? And under 10, I don’t think you need any. Make more than five, six dishes, because now you can get into the weeds and be like, do we need rolls? Do I need an appetizer? Because we aren’t even talking about dessert.
CK: Yeah, we haven’t even talked about dessert which is where I have absolutely no control whatsoever.
JT: Do you make it all, Chris, do you do dessert and the dinner?
CK: Yes, I cook everything. And I make three pies, pecan, pumpkin and apple, and, by the way, trifle,
JT: Trifle as well?
CK: Yeah, because I, some of my kids just demand trifles. So, I do right there, I got four dishes after the main meal, which I can’t get rid of.
JT: Yeah, that sounds about right for Thanksgiving. You know, another thing I also do Kelly is we do a group chat, or we do a group email, and I’m like, this is what I’m planning to make, and hold your piece or tell me what you want. And if there’s a lot of redundancies, I’m like, You know what? Take a vote. If I don’t hear from you. Guess what? You’re going to have a great meal, and you’re going to be thankful for this gathering. And I don’t want to hear it anymore. You’re the boss.
Caller: I like the voting option. I appreciate that. Sometimes what’s difficult is the stuff that I like isn’t always what everybody else likes. I like some of the old stuff, like there’s a green Jell-O salad that I really like that it’s got pineapple, that really concentrated pineapple and lime flavor that I made one year, and I took to a potluck Thanksgiving that I didn’t know my friend’s family. Her, she married into a Mexican family, and so they had mostly a lot of Mexican foods. And I show up with this green Jell-O salad, and nobody ate it.
JT: Yeah, and Kelly, are you a people pleaser or you’re like, hey, you’re going to deal with what I make. Which personality type are you?
Caller: You know, what? Both. I’m a recovering doormat, so I’m kind of overcoming the people pleasing but you know, I do like my people to be happy, you know, and enjoy their time with me. And I also cook everything, Chris, I love it until I don’t.
CK: Let me just give you something I’ve observed. Because I used to sweat it out back in the 70s and 80s, and I’d cook all day, and I was worried that everyone would love everything. And then I discovered that the next day, everybody forgot about the meal, right? And all that’s left over is this glow, this afterglow of whether they had a good time. You know, it’s all in the moment. You’re doing the cooking. It’s your house. You’re buying the groceries. I think you should just own your menu and do what you like. And you know, look, I mean, you’re hosting Thanksgiving. So, it’s a massive amount of time, money, work, effort. So, if you like green Jell-O with pineapple and lime, good for you.
Caller: I appreciate that, because we didn’t even talk about, like the deviled egg situation.
CK: Yeah, right, so I don’t know, make the Jell-O.
Caller: I’m totally going to thank you for your support. I’m going to tell them that you said it was okay and they can shut up about it
CK: You can blame Jet and I
JT: All day long
CK: Kelly, it’s been a pleasure.
Caller: Thank you. I appreciate you both.
JT: Thank you, have a good holiday.
Caller: You too.
CK: This is Milk Street Radio, and that was chef Jet Tila. His latest book is 101 Thai dishes You Need to Cook Before you Die. Last year, Jet and I spoke with a caller who made a pretty bold claim about how fast he could roast a turkey.
Caller: It cooks in 45 minutes.
JT: No,
CK: it cooks in 45 minutes, how big is the bird?
Caller: It’s above 15 usually it’s about 18.
CK: What?
JT: Wait and you hired spatchcock. You’re saying a whole bird cooks in 45 minutes.
Caller The whole bird cooks in 45 minutes. Yeah,
CK: Jet and I couldn’t believe it, so I asked Wes Martin from our kitchen at Milk Street to investigate. Hey, Wes, how are you?
Wes Martin: I’m doing great, Chris. How about you?
CK: Good. You know, as you know, most of our callers are really good cooks, and I actually learned something from them, but you tried to do a 45-minute turkey. So how did that work out for you?
WM: Yeah, so we all had our doubts about it, but you know, why not give it a try? So, we went about it a couple times just to see what we could figure out. First, we started with a whole bird. Just salted it, I stuffed some aromatics into the cavity, and we cranked that oven. We have, we have home ovens here at Milk Street. They they do go up to 550 degrees, and they’ve got a convection setting. So, we stuck a thermometer in there, and we were at about 550 and the internal temperature of the oven. Put it in there and gave it a shot, and we were not even close at 45 minutes, we were only at 99 degrees internal temperature. We had some thermometers stuck all over that bird. It was a little science experiment, and we kept on going, and it took well over two hours to get that whole bird roasted. So we went back to the drawing board. Thought, well, why don’t we spatchcock if we cut that backbone out, level out the plane of the turkey, so it’s all kind of the same thickness, and try it again. And we got it down to about an hour and 25 in this case, but the skin and the tendons were pulling away from the bone, and the leg meat was really dry and leathery by the time the breast was cooked, so that oven was too hot, so we’re not sure what he was working with, but we found that it did not work here at Milk Street.
CK: Yeah, but I have to say you did something that almost nobody’s ever been able to do, is to turn dark meat on a turkey completely dry and overcooked. It’s usually undercooked, but at least there’s some good news here, which is, instead of 3-4-5, hours, we are roasting a turkey in much less time. So then what do we do? I mean, we still wanted to do it quickly, but what do we do to make it tasty?
WM: Well, we thought we would run with this because though we knew it wouldn’t cook in 45 minutes. Within a short amount of time, we got it cooked. Now, we decided to lower the temperature a little bit, drop it down to 425 did not use the convection setting. We just regular oven, same thing. Spatchcocked the turkey, cut that backbone out, snapped the breastbone so it laid flat, salted it the night before, did a dry brine, and at 425 we did get a 14-pound turkey just under two hours to temp, still juicy, still delicious. We didn’t dry out the drumstick meat. And so, for those people who pop that turkey in at 10am and three o’clock, you’re still sitting there waiting for it to be done. This is a great, great option,
CK: Yeah, this spatchcocking evens out the cooking. You know, I spent years doing turkeys, breast side up, then breast side down, breast side down, breast side up. You know, change the temperature halfway through, because the breast meat tends to get overcooked before the dark meats done that dark made in a turkey because the legs are so much bigger, all the tendons and other, you know, ligaments and stuff. You really want to cook those legs fully, not just to 170 probably higher, yeah, you said dry brining. So, we should just say it now wet brining’s dead. You got to get a, I don’t know, a beer cooler or garbage can or something, yeah, probably doesn’t fit in your fridge properly, but it turns out the dry browning, which, you know, sprinkle the bird, the spatchcock bird, with salt, let it sit on, cover the fridge overnight. You get as much flavor, you get as much juiciness, it’s easier. And I have to say, a wet brine turkey. It’s kind of feels like lunch meat to me. You know, it’s it’s wet, it can be wet, yeah, dry brining, it’s not it has more chew, it has more texture, but you’re not losing juiciness. And I think, I think we should just take wet brining and put that into the annals of culinary history and forget about it.
WM: I agree. And I think people think that magically, that the longer you leave it in that wet brine, the better and more moist that turkey is going to be. It’s quite the opposite. So dry brining is a way to go. You get a beautiful, crisp skin. It’s much less messy. You can put that thing in the pan, you’re going to roast it in in the refrigerator and be ready to go the next day.
CK: So, 425 oven spatchcock bird, dry brined overnight in the fridge, uncovered in and out of the oven in two hours, and the white meat and the dark meat end up being perfectly cooked at the same time. You did it. Wes thank you very much. and Happy Thanksgiving.
WM: My pleasure. Happy Thanksgiving to you too, Chris,
CK: You can get the recipe for two-hour turkey, plus a collection of our favorite Thanksgiving recipes at Milkstreradio.com.
Al Roker: Hi everybody. I’m Al Roker from the Today Show. You’re listening to Milk Street Radio and well, Thanksgiving, everybody has, you know, their ideal Thanksgiving in their mind. And I think the best thanksgiving is the one that you feel the most comfortable with. I, for the longest time, have made Thanksgiving dinner, and plus, I also have the extra added responsibility of doing the Thanksgiving Day Parade with my today show co-hosts, Savannah Guthrie and Hoda Kotb and then I would prep everything the night before. My wife, Deborah Roberts, would put things in on a schedule, and then we get home, and then everybody shows up, and then we cook, and then I would just just be exhausted. And about, I don’t know, 10 years ago, Daniel Boulud invited us to Thanksgiving dinner. I’d never thought about going out to dinner. It just seemed just against the whole idea of Thanksgiving. And went, and it was fantastic. So, if somebody invites you to Thanksgiving dinner, whether it’s at a restaurant or at somebody else’s home, you know what? Take it. Just allow yourself an afternoon slash evening of nothing to give thanks for that you don’t have to cook, and even more importantly, you don’t have to clean.
CK: You’re listening to Milk Street Radio. Up next, it’s time for my favorite part of Thanksgiving dessert.
This is Milk Street Radio. I’m your host. Christopher Kimball, it’s time to talk dessert. Cheryl Day joins me now to answer some of your Thanksgiving baking questions. So, Cheryl, you know, over my lifetime, I’ve gone into Thanksgiving wanting different things. At one time it was just about how many recipes could I possibly make? Show off my cooking, (right) I gave that up a long time here. The other is just to be with family. Some years, it was all about what happened after dinner was over. Do you have a part of Thanksgiving, which, for you, is really the key part you look forward to the most? You know, maybe it’s the prep and the cooking before anybody shows up.
Cheryl Day: I do love all the prep, and I love, you know, just the tradition of pretty much making the same things. I like you, have given up trying to do too much. But then there’s one recipe that every year I am just always trying to make it be like my mom’s and make it better. And I haven’t gotten there yet.
CK: What is it?
CD: It is a cornbread stuffing or dressing. You know, sometimes I can’t find the ingredients that, you know, she used, you know, it’s one of those old family recipes. You know, of course, it’s not written down. But every year I’m like, oh, yeah. And Griff will say, yeah, you’re getting there. But we all know what that means.
CK: I’ve done that. I mean, I make it from scratch, I bake it in a baking sheet, let it cool, cut it into pieces, then I have to put it back in the oven to toast it, and then it is a time-consuming recipe.
CD: It is, anyway, I just love the fun of I have my Christmas music on at that point. And I really, I do love the process.
CK: You know, what make the perfect thanksgiving for me. I had a sister-in-law years ago. You were never allowed to have coffee and dessert till everything was cleaned up. I mean, for any dinner, it was really nice. It’s like Lawrence of Arabia. There’s a little intermission, you know, especially Thanksgiving, you’re so stuffed, and then there’s cleaning up and everything else, and the kitchen’s clean, everything’s put away, and you’re sitting down, and it’s been 45 minutes, and then you can, you know, make the coffee and have the pie. I think that’s really a nice way to segway, because otherwise there are plates all over the place, and the sinks fall and the pies come out, you don’t get a chance to really, is, I would put it honor, you know, the pies, which clearly are my favorite part of Thanksgiving
CD: Yeah, well, I mean, that is a great part, one of my faves too.
CK: Okay, so we need Thanksgiving intermissions. That’s what we need.
CD: There you go.
CK: Alright, let’s take a call.
CD: Welcome to Milk Street who’s calling?
Caller: Hi. This is Melanie.
CD: Hi, Melanie, where are you calling from?
Caller: I am in Louisville, Kentucky,
CD: Alright. Well, how can we help you today?
Caller: I have a question about when you’re cooking a pie or a cobbler or something that has the potential to leak out of the pan, do you put a pan or foil directly on the shelf under the pie, or do you go to the next shelf down? And how does that affect the baking of whatever it is you’re cooking?
CD: I mean, I just put it on a piece of parchment or foil directly on the pan. I know some folks do put it underneath, if you’re baking a lot of pies and you kind of want that heat from the pan. But in the case of just making a pie at home, I just put it directly on and I love a pie that bubbles over, personally, a fruit pie,
Caller: As long as it doesn’t get all over your oven,
CD: Exactly as long as it doesn’t get all over your oven. So that’s what I do. What do you do Chris?
CK: Yeah, I do the same thing. But, you know, it’s a good question. I’ve always asked myself whether the half baking sheet I put it on is going to slow down the heat to the bottom of the pie plate, because the baking sheets at room temperature, right? And the ovens at 375, or 400 and so it’s going to take time for that baking sheet to heat up. One thing I have done, which doesn’t solve the problem of boil overs, is put a pie plate directly on a baking steel that’s preheated in the oven.
Caller: Oh, I see
CD: You could also, Chris, sometimes I’ll put the pan in the oven too, if you don’t have a steel
CK: Yeah, and that’ll probably give you a better bottom crust. But in general, I would bake pies on the lowest rack to get that bottom crust browned properly. I tend to do that, but I think it’s fine. Just throw it in a half baking sheet. Maybe some parchment papers you know, will help the clean up a little bit if there’s a boil over. But I also agree that a boil over is good because you really want that filling to start boiling, to melt the sugar, and it just adds a lot of flavor
CD: And to answer your question, Melanie, about the time it’s not going to take as much time as it would take you or extra time to clean that oven. So, it’s worth it.
CK: Good point.
Caller: It’s true
CK: Melanie, thank you
Caller: Well, thank you for your help.
CD: Thanks, Melanie,
Caller: Bye.
CK: This is Milk Street Radio. If you have a pie emergency, just give us a ring any time, 855-426-9843 one more time, 855-426-9843 or please email us at questions at MilkStreetradio.com
CD: Hi, welcome to Milk Street whose calling?
Caller: Hi, this is Dia. I’m in South Carolina.
CD: Hi Dia, how can we help you today?
Caller: I tried to make my grandmother’s recipe for cheesecake, which has got to be 100 years old, and I’m not (wow) sure whether it’s a cheesecake issue or a cheese issue, because the recipe starts with two pounds of pot cheese. It includes two tablespoons of cornstarch, six eggs, a cup and three quarters of sugar, a teaspoon and a half of vanilla and a pint of heavy cream, (okay) and baked at 425 for a half an hour, and then 400 with no additional time given, (Okay) I made the cheese because I couldn’t find pot cheese after 15 minutes in the oven at 425, and I have an accurate oven thermometer (right) the top was very brown. After the half an hour, the top was black, (I bet) Yeah, I took it out early. It only baked for a half an hour and was the consistency when it cooled more of a Spanish style of flan. (Oh, wow) It was like a custard more than anything else.
CD: How do you recall gran’s cheesecake? Was it a dark colored cheesecake or not.
Caller: It was not black,
CD: Okay because there is a Basque cheesecake, and that’s kind of a signature look for that, but it doesn’t sound like that. For the pot cheese. Chris, correct me if I’m wrong, but is that similar to, like, a cottage cheese or a, like, a ricotta?
CK: Yeah. Yeah, it’s just a fresh unaged farmer’s cheese, right? Like __
CD: But what strikes me is the no stirring with the heavy cream. And does it say that let it sit out overnight, or does it age at all, or just pour it straight in?
Caller: No, it was just stir it. Don’t beat it, pour it in the pan.
CD: Okay. Well, that’s the first thing that stands out to me, that seems odd, and then also the temperature seems extremely high. When I bake my cheesecake just with regular cream cheese, and I’ve made it with, you know, ricotta and other things too. I do start at a high temperature at 400 but like five minutes, just to get it to kind of bounce up, but then it cooks low and slow at 225 for, gosh, about an hour or so, maybe 65 minutes even, because basically it sounds like it didn’t really have an opportunity to really turn into that filling that you want with a cheesecake style. What do you think Chris?
CK: I agree with the 425 down. You can do it a 425 and then bring it down to like 250 to 300 or whatever. That should solve the problem. But chilling the filling might also help. How much sugar was in it, by the way,
Caller: One- and three-quarter cups.
CK: It sounds a little much, but, you know, for two pounds of cheese, a cup and a half of sugar is pretty standard. Anyway, I would do what Cheryl says, which is reduce the temperature after a few minutes, or I would chill the filling first.
Caller: Would the homemade pot cheese have made a difference? I mean, I used whole milk and vinegar, and it was not ultra pasteurized milk. It curdled nicely. It looked like cottage cheese when I made it. (Oh, wow)
CK: Well, you know, there’s a trick in baking that Cheryl knows, which for, like cookies, adding some baking soda increases browning, and so baking soda is alkaline. So, it’s possible the pH, for some reason, of this cheese, is much higher. The higher the number, the more alkaline, less acidic it is. It may be that that does cause browning, because it does in cookies, right Cheryl?
CD: Right, exactly.
CK: That’s an old trick. It’s possible. I don’t know the chemistry of it, but that is a possibility. Anyway, I would follow Cheryl’s advice, do what Cheryl says
CD: it’s worth giving it a try. One more try.
Caller: I’ll give it one more try.
CK: All right. Thanks for calling.
Caller: Thank you very much. Bye.
CD: Goodbye,
CK: Welcome to Milk Street. Who’s calling?
Caller: Hi. This is Jen Jost. I’m calling from Peoria, Illinois.
CK: How can we help you?
Caller: I just want to say that Milk Street has, like literally changed my life. I cook five to six nights a week from Milk Street recipes, really, yeah, honestly, my husband bought the cookbook for me. We both grew up with houses that knew how to cook but didn’t know how to use bold flavors, (right) And it has been life changing for us.
CK: I grew up in a household my mother, I don’t think she even use salt. We didn’t have flavors, much less bold flavoring, so I’ve gone 180 (Wow) Anyway, what’s your question?
Caller: We have a local bakery in town that’s been fairly groundbreaking, and they’ve brought a lot of really nice pastries to town, and in their little refrigerated section, they sell Plugrà butter. I had never heard of it before, but I’ve since learned that it has higher butter fat in it, and it’s great for pastry. My husband and I are thinking of incorporating it into our Thanksgiving pies this year, and we’re wondering if we need a specific pie crust recipe designed for using Plugrà, or if we can just substitute it out one for one.
CK: I spoke with Stella Parks, who wrote Brave Tart years ago, and I asked her about this, and she had a really interesting answer. She said, if a recipe calls for, you know, a standard like Land O Lakes, American style butter, use the American style butter, because that’s how the recipe was developed. If you put in a higher fat butter, like in a cake, for example, it could change the recipe. However, in a pie pastry, I would, yes, I’d be perfectly fine. You know, you’re going from 81 or 82% butter fat to Cheryl, what, 83 or four or something like that. But, yes, it’s not a problem. But in cakes or other things, do what the recipe developer did, because you have a better chance of success. But pie dough, absolutely.
CD: it’s great in pie dough. I love that butter, European style butter. Bakers just do I’m a southern Baker too, so I tend to like the higher fat.
CK: The fat difference isn’t that great you’re adding 3% butter fat or something. But yes, in a pie dough, it would be great
Caller: Awesome. Thank you so much. It was really amazing to talk to you (same)
CK: Take care. That was Cheryl Day. Her latest book is Cheryl Day’s Treasury of Southern Baking.
Jacque Pepin: You’re listening to Milk Street Radio. And this is Jacques Pepin. As a child in France, I never experienced Thanksgiving. It doesn’t exist, but it has become my favorite holiday by far, and there is no religious application. It’s just getting together with friends to enjoy food and wine together. So this is the greatest of holiday. I hope you have a wonderful Thanksgiving. Happy cooking
CK: Coming up. Our listeners share their most unusual Thanksgiving traditions.
This is Milk Street Radio. I’m your host. Christopher Kimball, next up, we have a literary offering from our friend Adam Gopnik. Adam, how are you?
Adam Gopnik: I am fine Christopher, how are you today?
CK: You are in fine fettle.
AG: I am you can hear it in my voice, because I love Thanksgiving, and Thanksgiving is approaching, and it’s my favorite time of year. I love the feast. I love the bringing together of people.
CK: Well, there are no Thanksgiving cards, there are no Thanksgiving presents, and it’s entirely about cooking and food. So, what could possibly go wrong.
AG: At our table it is about cooking, and it is about food, but I love particularly a little ritual that we have over the past 40 years, and that is, we ask everybody who’s coming to dinner to bring a poem with them. It can be a classic, it can be a limerick, but everyone has to bring a poem, and it’s everybody’s favorite moment of the feast, exactly because poetry organizes our emotions, and everyone is grateful between the turkey and the pumpkin pie to have a little reflective moment.
CK: I think that is the great idea. So, are these poems entirely about food?
AG: No, they can be on any subject, but inevitably they tend towards poems about food. And I’ve assembled an elegant little anthology just to share with you. Now the first one comes from the first great poet of all, Homer, of course, and this is from Homer’s Odyssey Book One, when Athena dines with Telemachus in Robert Fagles translation, a maid brought water soon, in a graceful golden pitcher and over a silver basin, tipped it out so they might all rinse their hands, then pulled a gleaming table to their side. A stayed housekeeper brought on bread to serve them, appetizers aplenty too lavish with their bounty, a carver lifted platters of meat towards them, meats of every sort, and set beside them golden cups and time and again a page came round and poured them wine.
CK: Well, I’m, as you know, a Dickens fan in Christmas the Pickwick remember that whole thing with sizzly apples, of course, the Dingley Dell, at Dingley Dell. And I have to say, I just found that just so charming and I actually read that around the holidays as well. It just really sums up, for me, the notion of celebration and food together. I don’t know how you feel about it,
AG: I love the section of Dingley Dells early on in the Pickwick Papers, before it gets a little a little darker, but it was Dickens first great hit, and yes, I love that. It’s one of the coziest pieces of writing. It’s funny you mentioned Dickens though, and because he’s a prose writer, and when I got to thinking about trying to find you something Chris from Shakespeare, I realized Shakespeare never writes poetry about food. He only writes prose about food. Now, someone will write in about some piece, but on the whole, that’s true, he thinks of food as a prose subject, not a subject for verse. The only extended piece of prose I could find in Shakespeare about food comes from the Winter’s Tale Act Four, where the dullard, simple, shepherd’s son goes on a shopping trip. He’s been sent by his sister Perdita, who you remember, is the beautiful shepherdess, and she sent him to market with a list. And he reads out the list because it puzzles him. He’s bewildered by it. And the list goes three pounds of sugar, five pounds of currants, rice. What will this sister of mine do with rice? I must have saffron to color dates, none. That’s out of my note. Nutmegs, seven, a race or two of ginger, four pound of prunes and as many of raisins. Now he’s bewildered. What will this sister of mine do with rice? But I know Chris, you can see right away what Perdita is planning to make for the upcoming sheep sharing festival.
CK: Well, it’s probably a Ripley’s, believe it or not, rice pudding probably be the largest one anyone ever prepared,
AG: Yes, with three pounds of sugar and five pounds of curds. But I think that’s exactly right. And anyone who’s read Elizabeth Luard’s book on Sacred Food will have exactly that same epiphany, because, as you recall, Luard makes the point that in every culture, it’s essentially universal. We use some form of rice pudding, saffron rice, nutmeg to mark festivals, to mark all our rites of passage. And so, it’s lovely to find the bewildered shepherd who doesn’t know what his sister is making.
CK: So, if you were to sum up Thanksgiving poetically for you, is it about memory? Is it about family? Is it about culture? How would you poetically describe Thanksgiving?
AG: I think of three little poems that connect the feast of thanksgiving to the broader values that we all want to share, the concept of pluralism, of welcoming many kinds, many faiths, many sorts, to our table. And the other is the power of ritual to dignify our appetites. There’s a beautiful little poem by Virgil, of all people, Homer’s great Latin successor called The Moretum, that’s all about making pesto. And that poem ends hand in circles move. Till by degrees they one by one. He’s talking about the ingredients, the cheese and the basil and so on. Till by degrees they one by one do lose their proper powers. And out of many comes a single color. And you know, Chris, that’s the source of the American motto, e pluribus unum. Out of many, one comes from a recipe, really, for pesto that Virgil wrote down 2000 years plus ago. And not enough people know that. And I would add to that poem to capture the true spirit, as I imagine it, of an American Thanksgiving, that great poem by William Carlos Williams, which I’m sure all of our listeners know “I’ve eaten the plums that were in the ice box and which you are probably saving for breakfast. Forgive me, they were delicious, so sweet and so cold”. It’s a husband writing to a wife an apology for sneaking something out of the refrigerator on the night before Thanksgiving, which I’m sure we’ve all done. And let me just end with a little piece of a poem by a friend of mine, the great American poet, Jane Hirschfeld. She writes about how you cure a broken heart. Do you know how she recommends curing a broken heart (eating) by making lentil soup and eating it. She writes, returning home sliced carrots, onions, celery, glaze them in oil, before adding the lentils, waters and herbs, then the roasted chestnuts, a little pepper, the salt, finish with goat cheese and parsley. Eat. You may do this, I tell you, it is permitted. Begin again, the story of your life.
CK: Oh, that’s wonderful. I love that. Isn’t that beautiful? Yeah. Begin Again, the story of your life. It seems to me, Chris, that the perpetual themes of the poetry of food across the millennia are the themes of American Thanksgiving. The first one is renewal through ritual. That the rituals of dining are the source of our renewal, the care with which we make our meals and as well and that’s the thing that Virgil’s out of many comes one is the pleasures of pluralism of every kind, many dishes, many people, many kinds, many faiths altogether around a single table, pluralism and renewal, those are the two magical words of Thanksgiving. And I hope you have a happy one. Christopher
CK: And I want a pot of lentil soup.
AG: I will send it north to you,
CK: Adam, Happy Thanksgiving to you too and your family, and I’m going to borrow your your poetry concept this year and read poems at the table. Thank you.
AG: That couldn’t make me happier. Talk about renewal through ritual. Happy Thanksgiving.
CK: Happy Thanksgiving. That was Adam Gopnik, staff writer at The New Yorker.
You’re listening to Milk Street Radio for this special episode, we invited our listeners to share their most unique thanksgiving traditions, and we got this call from Norma Asbury of Fleming Island, Florida,
Caller: In 2009 my husband was preparing the turkey to go into the fryer, and that year he spanked the turkey to kind of disperse the marinade. So, he called us in and said, well, here, you guys do it too. So of course, we washed our hands. And each of us gave the turkey a whack. That started our tradition of spanking the turkey. In 2011 in June, my husband died the following year, all of us lined up and gave the turkey a whack. And on Reddit, when I posted that story, I had a lot of people who replied and said, hey, we want to do this too. What’s your husband’s name? And so, I said, okay, everybody, if you want, we’d be very honored if you spank the turkey and say, this is for Tony, and it’s just something special to honor the big man who actually made the best fried turkey you’ve ever had in your life.
CK: Many of you called to tell us your Thanksgiving rituals, from spanking turkeys to avoiding them altogether. Here are some of the stories you shared.
Caller: My family and I every year, while we’re getting ready, we listen to Alice’s Restaurant. I do not allow any talking. If people talk, it gets it gets played again until there’s silence. Other than us all singing, you can get anything you want at Alice’s Restaurant
Caller: One of the things that we’ve done over the years, will hide little paper turkeys all over the yard and all over the house, and the kids, the many of them, will then have a turkey hunt with Nerf guns
Caller: For Thanksgiving. I always have a tradition of making a bread in the shape of a turkey, and I make the little gobble and put raisin for the eyes. And I’m well known in Knoxville, Tennessee for doing it.
Caller: Every year my family has something called Turkey nut cups, which are a little tiny cup on the side of our plate that’s dressed up like a turkey. And in our little cup, we keep little treats that we can snack under in our meal of the best popcorn or chocolate or candies, whatever it might be,
Caller: I’ve been hosting sit down, multi course tasting menu. Nothing traditional is on the menu because we don’t care for Turkey. Last year, I was inspired to serve Coco’s Boulevard black walnut and venison consummate, braised beef cheeks with spitzel and a butterscotch tart for dessert.
Caller: Pea salad consists of canned peas, hard boiled eggs, green stuffed olives, and it’s all mixed with mayonnaise, and it’s been made for generations in our family. I tried to not do it one year, and everybody was very disappointed.
Caller: I borrowed my mother’s extra pie dough and dressed our family Turkey in a tuxedo, and even gave it a bow tie, like the one that Christopher Kimball wears so well.
Caller: Every year I harass my husband. He loves his canned jelly cranberry sauce. He grew up with it. It’s what he does. I’m dying for homemade, so I’ll make a small batch for myself, and he gets his canned jelly crap. I’ve got to give him hell for it. You know, it keeps us young.
Caller: My son, who is now 16 years ago, wanted spaghetti for Thanksgiving. That’s my daughter, and we just decided to let him write the menu every year. We have a family tradition called pizza at midnight, where everybody stays up late, we watch movies, we play games, and then at midnight, we get out all the six things and we make homemade pizza
Caller: Our untraditional Thanksgiving tradition is to watch a shark movie with our dessert that includes everything you can imagine from Shark Week, all the Sharknado movies, the Meg, the Meg Two and, of Course, re watching Jaws.
Caller: Cream cheese cookies are a tradition at every Thanksgiving and Christmas in our extended family, and my mother, Corinda, and her niece Linda, were baking and pressing for so many hours that they were completely exhausted and sick to their stomachs and never wanted to bake again. And for the last 55 plus years, my mother shares this story as we are putting the cookie trays on the dessert table. This is coined the term in our family of cream cheese stories, family tales that are often funny at someone else’s expense.
The nieces and in laws sincerely laugh at these stories even though they know the punchline because they know, and we know that these stories are who we were, who we became, and they honor those that are no longer at the table. All hail the cream cheese cookie.
CK: Thank you to everyone who called and shared a story. Of course, my own Thanksgiving is also filled with traditions. My favorite part is when I listen to a recording of A Child’s Christmas in Wales, read by the author, Dylan Thomas. And so, to end this year’s special Thanksgiving episode, I leave you with a man himself, Dylan Thomas,
Dylan Thomas: For dinner, we had Turkey and blazing pudding, and after dinner, the uncles sat in front of the fire, loosened all buttons, put their large, moist hands over their watch chains, groaned a little and slept. Mothers, aunts and sisters scuttled to and fro bearing tureens Aunt Bessie, who had already been frightened twice by a clock-work mouse, whimpered at the sideboard and had some elderberry wine. The dog was sick. Auntie Dosie had to have three aspirins. But Auntie Hannah, who liked port, stood in the middle of the snow bound back yard singing like a big bosom thrush.
CK: That’s it for this year’s Thanksgiving special. To explore Milk Street and everything we have to offer, please go to 177 Milkstreet.com there you can become a member and get full access to every recipe, free, standard shipping for the Milk Street store and much more. Can also learn about our latest book, Milk Street Bakes, plus we have a complete collection of all of our Thanksgiving recipes at Milk Street radio.com/thanksgiving, you can also find us on Facebook at Christopher Kimball’s Milk Street. On Instagram at 177 Milk Street. We’ll be back next week with more food stories and cooking questions. Thanks for listening, and we wish you all a very happy Thanksgiving.
Christopher Kimball’s Milk Street Radio is produced by Milk Street in association with GBH co-founder Melissa Baldino, executive producer Annie Sensabaugh, senior editor Melissa Allison, producer Sarah Clapp, Assistant Producer Caroline Davis with production help from Debby Paddock. Additional editing by Sidney Lewis, audio mixing by Jay Allison and Atlantic Public Media in Woods Hole Massachusetts. Theme music by Toubab Krewe, additional music by George Brandl Egloff, Christopher Kimball’s Milk Street Radio is distributed by PRX.
