Christopher Kimball: This is Milk Street Radio from PRX. I’m your host, Christopher Kimball, today we’re sitting down with Irish Baker, Cherie Denham, growing up in Northern Ireland, gave Cherie a first-hand education in Irish cooking, baking and, of course, hospitality.
Cherie Denham: You never walk into a house in Ireland without being offered a cup of tea and something nice to eat. My daddy always used to say a cup of tea is awful wet without anything else, isn’t it?
CK: That’s coming up later on the show, first we’re getting an insider’s look at food advertising. The television show Mad Men gave us fictional campaigns for brands like popsicle, Utz potato chips and Heinz. It’s clean,
Voice: It’s clean, it’s simple and it’s tantalizingly incomplete. What’s missing? One thing pass the Heinz. You mean the Heinz ketchup, it’s Heinz. It only means one thing
CK: To find out the real stories behind some of the most and least successful food ads. I’m joined now by a Madison Avenue veteran, Jeff Swystun, Jeff, welcome back to Milk Street
Jeff Swystun: What a pleasure. It’s great to be back looking forward to this.
CK: So, before we get into examples, tell me a little bit about your experiences in the advertising business and on Madison Avenue.
JS: Yeah, so, you know, through my uh, advertising and branding work, I worked with a branding agency and then went to DDB, one of the larger ad agencies. And through my career, I’ve had the pleasure of working on McDonald’s and finding out how difficult it is for these global restaurant, quick service grocery brands to have a consistent message around the world. When I joined DDB, I thought we did all the McDonald’s advertising all around the world. Well, that wasn’t true. There’s not one ad agency that could service McDonald’s globally. So, in addition to the challenge of running a huge global business, McDonald’s would have to manage, like over 400 agencies around the world to try to have, you know, consistent messaging campaigns.
CK: So now we’ll start at the beginning. So, Uneeda a 1896 this is really interesting. You said they had a teaser campaign where the only thing you saw on the billboard or in the magazine or whatever was the word UNITA, which, which sounds either prescient about the future of advertising, or they didn’t know what else to do. I don’t know which it was.
JS: You know, you might have just defined advertising and marketing that half the time it’s science and half the time it’s lucky art. But this came out from what is now in Nabisco, the National Biscuit Company. It was the first campaign ever to spend a million dollars. Back then, people would go into the general store and continually reach into a cracker barrel, and Uneeda came out with its packaging, with its brand name, and with this national campaign that was never seen before, and it had results. You Uneeda, you need a what? You need a biscuit. Of course, you need a biscuit. And within a couple of years, Americans were buying an astonishing 10 million packages every month, more than 20 times the combined sales of all other packaged crackers.
CK: So, let’s talk about some other big successes that I remember because I’m old enough. But LIFE cereal, you know the Mikey. Let’s see if Mikey wants to eat it. Just want to explain that commercial for those the younger members of our listing audience.
JS: Yeah, so if we I remember it. Young Mikey, the parents weren’t shown in the ad. That was very unconventional for the times. And here it showed two pestering older brothers getting young Mikey to try LIFE, which had been sold to them through their mother as being healthy. And of course, they thought healthy just meant not fun, not sugary, but Mikey tucks into it and enjoys it. And, you know, they exclaim, wow, Mikey likes it. He doesn’t like anything.
Life Cereal Ad: He likes it. Hey, Mikey, when you bring LIFE home, don’t tell the kids. It’s one of those nutritional cereals you’ve been trying to get them to eat. You’re the only one who has to know.
CK: Well, it worked for I guess my parents, because I ate LIFE cereal every morning for years.
JS: And did you know this is incredible, Chris, they revitalized it this year. They actually brought in a new Mikey, and they changed the tonality of it to reflect the more chaotic, not Leave It to Beaver look of a house, but, you know, a household where it’s crazy in the morning, but Mikey’s enjoying his LIFE cereal. So, this thing has legs. It’s, you know, now going on 50 years
Life cereal jingle: My brother’s in his underwear. Mom’s got toothpaste in her hair, daddy still has not got me, but when it’s time to sit and eat, a bowl of LIFE is pretty sweet. He likes it. Hey, Mikey, I really love my LIFE. Yeah, I really love my life.
CK: The Coke. You know, I’d like to buy a world of coke and keep it company, but people singing on the Hill. I’m so fascinated by advertising because you’re trying to sell a soft drink, and you have 50 people singing a song on a hill, and it’s brilliant, but it’s, you know, if you went into a meeting and said, I got this great idea for a coke ad, they might think you’re crazy. So how did it come about? And why do you think it works so well.
JS: This one is so funny, because we would joke when I worked on Madison Avenue that half the ideas came over a two or three Martini lunch and were jotted down on a cocktail napkin. This wasn’t a three Martini lunch. It was a gentleman from McCann Erickson, now called McCann one of the bigger agencies, flying to England, and there was bad weather, and the plane got rerouted, and everyone was unhappy on the on the plane, and the airline brought out a free coke to everyone, and everyone calmed down and began talking to each other. And he sort of noticed the strangers talking to strangers, and saw that this product actually brought people together, and that’s where it resulted from. And it could almost be a trivia question for your audience, but this was filmed in Italy, actually.
CK: Yeah, that also surprised me.
JS: Yeah, we make the natural assumption that they’re in the hills of California, near LA, and I often think about, you know, them costuming them, they were hippie-ish, but they were clean cut at the same time, and I thought coke and McCann Erickson really trod that line very well.
Coke song: I’d like to teach the world to sing, sing with me in perfect harmony. I’d like to buy the world a coke and keep it company. It’s the real thing….
CK: Now this one really was a great example of one of the most iconic ads that did a really lousy job, because you wouldn’t remember, and I didn’t remember what they were selling, the spicy meatball. That’s a spicy meatball.
JS: So, this is my old agency, Doyle Dane Bernbach, obviously, many decades before I joined it, it’s a commercial within a commercial. So, what you’re seeing is a commercial being filmed for a pasta sauce, and the actor can’t get his line right. Mama mia, that’s a spicy a meat ball. And the poor actor within this commercial, within the commercial, eats so many meatballs that he gets indigestion, and that’s why it’s an Alka Seltzer ad. But the pasta sauce was, you know, referenced so many times, and Alka Seltzer came up once at the end. So, you know what it ended up doing, selling no more Alka Seltzer but pasta sauce flew off the shelves as a result. So, it’s totally funny.
Making the Alka seltzer ad: Mama Mia, that’s a spicy meatball. Cut. What was matter with that? The accent. Me see my sea ball? See ballsy? Take 59 and action. Sometimes you eat more than you should, and when it’s spicy, besides, Mama Mia, do you need Alka Seltzer
CK: So we have these examples, these classic ads, many of which worked really well, like Coke, some not so good, like Alka Seltzer. So that’s the world of Madison Avenue. What have people learned in the last 10 years? Like, what things have stopped working? What new things are working? Is the creative really similar than it was 30 40, years ago? Or has that also changed?
JS: What’s changed is brevity. So, it’s a lot harder to convey a creative idea or get a creative idea across in a compelling way that holds people’s attention. And also, marketers and brands are working on shorter schedules. You know, the successful ones we’ve been talking about, from the 70s back to the 50s, those companies were planning on three-year cycles. Now, you know, companies are planning on three-day cycles. And I think we’re in an interesting period right now, but I think we’re going to find a compromise in the next five to 10 years where longer term brand building is going to come back because, you know, we can speak about a Coca Cola, and generally, anyone can, you know, articulate what the brand is all about, freshness, fun, happiness. But the one thing that’s really interesting about all sorts of the food category the food industry is it plays upon comfort, and it also evokes memories, and I see that being a benefit and a bit of too much of a guardrail right now for the food industry, where everything is built upon nostalgia, like we were. Talking about with Mikey and LIFE cereal. Well, just today, press release came out from Oscar Mayer, where they are rebooting the old bologna or baloney jingle after 50 years and so it. You know, within months of each other, you got Mikey and LIFE cereal and the Oscar Mayer iconic song coming back. And I think that the chief marketing officers and the ad agencies servicing food brands, large and small, are struggling to remain relevant and are tapping these old-time emotional roots, which are great, but there’s only so much longevity right before you need something fresh.
CK: Some things change, and some things never change. Jeff, thank you so much. It’s been a real pleasure.
JS: It’s been a pleasure for me too. Chris, great to be back.
CK: That was branding expert Jeff Swystun. He’s also the author of TV Dinners Unboxed the Hot History of Frozen Meals. Now it’s time to answer your cooking questions with my co-host, Sara Moulton. Sara is of course, the star of Sara’s Weeknight Meals on public television, also author of Home Cooking 101.
Sara Moulton: So, Chris, what is your go to dinner in this situation, your wife and kids are out, you only have like an hour. You got to rush off and do something yourself, so you’re not going to cook yourself a meal. Some people like, I know this chef who would come home from work every night and have a bowl of cereal and watch the Honeymooners, and he was in heaven. His name is Giroux, (right to the moon) right, his name is Giroux. He’s French, too. So, it’s extra funny. What would yours? I’ll tell you mine after you tell me yours.
CK: The things I like when I’m not cooking any kind of scrambled eggs or omelet or a quick frittata, or any of those things are easy to throw together. I often eat oatmeal, like steel cut oatmeal. Flanahan steel cut oatmeal is fabulous. (Can? It comes in a can? Oh, they all come in a can) and then it’s about 20 minutes. You can actually (20 minutes?) yeah, you can actually do it the night before and you so that’s something you can keep around. And I do. I often make rice. I make rice, like, three times a week, and I just find what’s in the fridge, and I, you know, leftover meat or something. I top rice a lot is my go- o dinner.
SM: Well, you know, it’s funny, because I thought of this question, because last week, my nephew was in a concert. He’s in a choral group, and it was absolutely beautiful. Any rate I had to go to that the husband was out. I only had about a half an hour to eat something for dinner, and I was so excited, because I decided I can have cheese and crackers for dinner (and wine). Yeah, of course, absolutely. And, you know, I had some really nice cheddar, which isn’t fancy or anything, but I was just like, wow, I had good crackers. Good cheese. I was just happy.
CK: There’s nothing better. Sometimes, if you skip dinner, then you can have lots of cheese and crackers, right? And that’s actually exactly
SM: Right. And that’s actually exactly what I thought. Yeah. As a matter of fact, this is within the calorie range it should have been anyway
CK: Because otherwise you have, like, two pieces of cheese. You go, like, I shouldn’t have any more.
SM: Yeah, I know. And it’s so sad
CK: That’s a good one. (Yeah) cheese and crackers. there you go.
SM: Okay, moving on. Let’s take a call. Welcome to Milk Street. Who’s calling
Caller: Hi. This is Tamara from Adairsville, Georgia.
SM: Hi, Tamara, how can we help you?
Caller: My family and I have a small homestead, and we raise our own Jackson chickens, and occasionally we wind up having too many roosters, and so we need to cull the flock. And because they are free range, they tend to be tough and dry when cooked. And I was wondering if you had suggestions for cooking them.
SM: Well, I think definitely braising is the way to go. You know, moist, low temperature. Also, you’re right, they’re lean, so they need some fat. There is a Greek dish which is rooster with pasta and tomato sauce, which has a fair amount of olive oil in it. I think about the old French days when they would lard a roast that was lean with, you know, fat. But you could also add some bacon, which would be really nice, and bacon fat. So that’s what I would do, is, you know, cook it low and slow. I would definitely, I think a tomato base is a good thing, and make sure there’s a fair amount of fat in there. Chris?
CK: Coco vin was a rooster, and roosters usually were three, four or five years old before they were slaughtered, and so the meat was older, you know, a chicken now is, what, six or eight weeks old, something. It’s very young. So that’s one reason roosters tend to be tough. But you’re right. In general, their tougher I have larded, actually, venison. And I found larding, you know, I did it with a larding needle and everything else. It didn’t really make I mean, the meats still dry and so I don’t think you can add fat to dry meat or tough meat. Internally the meat is the meat, right? It helps a little, but not really. I totally agree with Sarah that low and slow, like a braise of some kind, that’s how it would cook, for example, you know, legs of rabbit or something, right? A wild game or venison, low and slow, and that’ll work well. Actually, if you go dig up like a Julia Child coq au vin recipe, it’s probably six pages, Mastering the Art,
(probably 12) but you know, it would be fun, because that was designed for tough chicken, designed for a rooster. So, I would try that. Actually. I think that’s the ideal recipe for this.
SM: Yeah, that also has red wine in it and has lard in it, which is bacon and pearl onions and mushrooms.
CK: When you cull the herd, how old are the roosters?
Caller: They can be anywhere between six months to a year, year and a half depending on how old. (So, they’re older) yeah, sometimes you tend to be older. Would you recommend any kind of like pressure cooking or anything like that, or brining?
CK: No, I would do one thing, though, cook the breast separately from the legs, which are going to be much tougher. Same thing I would do with rabbit is the back strap the tenderloin. I cook in two or three minutes, very quickly. Cook the legs a long, slow braise.
Caller: Okay, great. Those are some great suggestions.
CK: I remember years ago. I’ve mentioned this before, but a friend of mine across the valley came to Thanksgiving and brought her home raised turkey, and the leg was so big it wouldn’t fit in the oven. I did, had to chain saw it off, and the breasts are tiny, so my guess is the breast meat is going to be very small and the leg is going to be really big., so it’s going to be mostly leg.
SM: Yeah, but do let us know what you do. We want to know. Okay
Caller: I will. I will. Thank you so much
SM: All right, bye, bye,
Caller: bye.
CK: This is Milk Street Radio. If dinners got you down, call us 855-426-9843, that’s 855-426-9843, or just email us at questions at Milk Street radio.com Welcome to Milk Street. Who’s calling?
Caller: This is Don calling from Toledo, Ohio.
CK: How can we help you?
Caller: I know that in many recipe books and recipes I’ve seen when you’re making things like pudding and custards and the like that, they often recommend at the end that you lay a piece of plastic on the surface to keep a skin from forming. And I am one who tries to avoid plastic as much as possible. So I’m wondering if you can recommend an alternative to that.
CK: Number one, I’m with you. I don’t like putting plastic or plastic wrap on hot, fatty foods, (correct) I’ve read that that’s not a good idea. Now, maybe there are certain plastic wraps where this is not a problem, but I just don’t do it. Number two, as a kid, I love the skin on custards and puddings, so I view that as the positive, not negative. I guess if you really objected to it, you could use parchment paper. Maybe you spray it, or don’t. Or there’s also parchment paper, that sort of nonstick parchment paper you could use, or you could use wax paper, I guess I would not use plastic wrap. What I actually would do is nothing, right, Sara? nothing.
SM: Well, because you like the skin, and there are quite a few people who do like the skin, although it is a bit chewy,
CK: multi textural.
SM: Yes, there you go. But I wonder if, I mean, what happens is, as soon as the surface of the pudding is exposed to the air, it starts to form that skin. So, you need to sort of keep the air from the pudding. I wonder if perhaps this wouldn’t last very long if you put a wet paper towel right on top of the surface, if you know,
Caller: Okay, so there’s nothing intrinsic to the plastic. Necessarily. It doesn’t have to be plastic, I guess is what you’re saying.
SM: No, it’s the air. It’s just like now, when I cut an avocado, I put it cut side down on a plate, because then there’s no air getting to the avocado
CK: put it in a small container with a slice of apple
SM: or a slice of onion. Yes, this all works. Air is the monster here.
CK: Can I just comment that given the infinite and totally confusing nature of the universe, that it’s so wonderful as human beings, we can argue about skin on pudding it just makes you feel good about our ability to ignore the big issues of the day,
SM: Right. That’s why people find food so comforting.
CK: forget about black holes.
Caller: In your opinion, it’s not even that essential at all. I guess is what I’m hearing.
CK: Well, it’s whatever you want, I mean it’s the great thing about food. It doesn’t matter what I think,
SM: and some people do like that skin.
CK: But there is parchment paper that is actually sort of a nonstick parchment paper you can buy. I think wax paper would probably be fine.
SM: Yeah, I do too.
Caller: And you don’t think the wax would melt,
CK: I don’t think so. Let it cool just a bit. Maybe wax paper used to be used all the time
SM: and I know the trouble was, when you did put it in the oven, or it would start to smoke. So that was a problem. Weren’t
CK: Well, you weren’t supposed to put it in the oven.
SM: I know.
CK: Don, I think we’re, yeah, we’re heading towards the infinite universe here. Don, thank you. (Yes)
SM: bye.
CK: You’re listening to Milk Street radio coming up the definitive guide to Irish baking. You This is Milk Street Radio. I’m your host. Christopher Kimball, now it’s my interview with Cherie Denham. Cherie is a baker, preserver and author of the new cookbook the Irish Bakery, Cherie, welcome to Milk Street.
Cherie Denham: Thanks very much. Thank you for having me.
CK: Let’s start with history. So, when you talk about the baking of Ireland, was this entirely separate from any other influence up until the present day, or at some point, did the Irish traditions get mixed with other traditions? In other words, is there pure Irish baking that’s totally separate from like England or Britain for example?
CD: I think so. Chris, yeah, I think that from years ago, it was always a situation where these women, because it was women, back in the day, it was people of my grandmother’s era, my great aunts, and they seemed to bake for every day. They never really bought breads or anything. And also, these breads were always made with bicarbonate of soda rather than yeast. They were fast breads, and they always used to bake for the whole family, like my grandmother had 13 children, and even when they were older, she would bake all day and make sure that they all had bread to take home with them, because they’d all come and visit her, and they’d all walk away with bags of butter, bread jam, you know. And I think those baking traditions meant everything to them. It really rooted them as well, because they’ve all brought the food back to basics. You know, there were only about four ingredients in each bread, and I think that’s something that we need to really think about, bringing food back to basics.
CK: So, what about today? Has soda bread remained a really important part of Irish baking, or has yeasted bread sort of crept into the scene now
CD: Not really, you know, it’s interesting because I put a few yeasted breads on my TikTok, but the ones that really go are the soda breads, like the soda Fars and on the white soda, the fruit soda, the the wheaten bread, because I think especially for for new bread makers, people want to try things. They want to be quick. Do you know what I mean? Whereas, I think a yeasted bread, people are more afraid of yeast. Whereas the soda bread, they’ve got something like in an hour coming out of the oven, and it smells divine, and it’s so much better than shop bought, so much better.
CK: So, I always wondered, because I make a cross on my whole wheat soda bread, and you said your, your great aunt Evie said that it kept the devil out of the home. So now I know why I do it.
CD: Yeah. So, the cross across the top to keep the devil out, and then you have to pierce each quarter to let the fairies out, because the fairies might Jinx your bread otherwise.
CK: I didn’t know that that’s important. I’ve had fairies in my whole wheat soda bread all the time. That’s a problem. I knew there was a problem. So, if you’re going to bake soda bread at home, give us like, what are a couple other common ones that maybe people here might make at home?
CD: Okay, so really easy is the white soda. So, you need about 400 grams of plain flour, 300 mils or 355 mils of buttermilk, a teaspoon of bicarbonate of soda or baking soda, and a teaspoon of salt, and that’s all you need for that one. And then same ingredients, but with maybe leftover bacon that you’ve had from breakfast, a bit of grated cheese with some spring onions, absolutely delicious. Then you’ve got fruit slims. So that’s, again, a soda bread with dried fruit added. You roll it out to about the size of a dinner plate, cut it in four, and then you do those on the griddle or a dry frying pan. So those are fruit soda farls. And then there’s treacle farls, there’s Wheaton farls, yeah. So those are all the lovely soda bread ones delicious.
CK: So, F, A, R, L, S, what? What does farls mean?
CD: So, farls is Ulster Scots for quarter. So, they’re just the shape of a circle that’s been cut into fours.
CK: So, let’s talk about biscuits and pancakes, other you know, quick breads, yeah, so are pancakes and biscuits similar to what I would make in New England, for example. Talk about buns, biscuit, scones, etc.
CD: So, the pancake recipe, I suppose you guys, would you call them drop scones. It’s a really basic recipe, again, just a few ingredients, your flour, your egg, your milk, and maybe a wee bit of baking powder. Now, Mommy says that years ago when granny made them, she literally had the griddle over the fire, and they all lined up after their bath on a Saturday night, and as quickly as she made them and got them off the pan, they all queued up and put a bit of butter or a bit of sugar or something, you know, very simple, on them, and then go round again in a circle until all the pancake mixture had gone. She says that was a lovely memory for her, because I think pancakes people only really tend to have had pancakes in the north of Ireland whenever it was Shrove Tuesday, (right) So it was only a once-a-year thing, so it was very exciting.
CK: I don’t know, I, you know, I was born at the wrong time. I’m sorry. I just, I, you know, don’t get me started. But I just think, like, cultures have a rise and fall, and I just don’t I think we’re past the good part, because the idea of having a bath on a Saturday night and standing in line and someone’s making pancakes on a griddle over a fire is about as appealing as it gets. I guess. (Isn’t it) Barmbrack that has a great story to it and want to explain what they are and what’s entombed in the loaf.
CD: So, Barmbrack is a delicious, yeasted fruit bread, enriched fruit bread. It’s got this gorgeous, dark, glossy covering. And not only is it delicious fresh with cheese or jam, but it’s also delicious toasted. And when you make the dough up, what my granny and auntie Evelyn used to do, actually, was wrap each little there were five little things that were wrapped, little tokens I suppose you could call them. One was a stick, and that meant an unhappy marriage. One was a ring that meant you were going to get married. One was a pay or a piece of cloth, and they meant that you weren’t going to do very well in life. I mean, it’s a bit morbid really
CK: I was going to say, wait a minute, no, the first one, you’d have a happy marriage or unhappy marriage.
CD: The stick, unhappy marriage
CK: Gee, man. Okay, so let’s make the list, and we got unhappy marriage. What was the second one?
CD: Then you’ve got the rag or the pay, which meant that you weren’t going to have much money. (Okay) Then you have the wedding ring. I think we would all have wanted the wedding ring, I have to say.
CK: And, oh, you have a thimble. What about a thimble?
CD: Oh, the thimble. The thimble was like, you know, you were going to be a great woman in the house. You were going to be able to do everything, you could mend, you could cook, you could knit everything.
CK: Does this say something to you about Irish traditions and culture.
CD: Oh, like Chris years ago, it was like fortune telling. People were in bits if they got the wrong thing. I mean, yeah, very much. So now, years and years and years ago, but the same thing at Halloween, they would have wrapped silver coins up an apple tart, and if you got the coin. You were delighted, but if you didn’t get the coin, there was nothing. So, you’re like, oh, is there no hope for me? You know, they did take it. It was really important, you know.
CK: Okay, let’s talk about dessert. I mean, is dessert something? I know a lot of cultures would have a sweet in the afternoon with a cup of tea or coffee. You know, it’s late afternoon. A lot of people didn’t actually eat desserts, per se. Is there a long tradition of actual dessert, like there is, you know, puddings in England, and if so, what? What are some of the things that were pretty common?
CD: So, puddings, desserts, whatever, they would really only have been, especially in our house, only on a Sunday, okay, because, you know, they were quite expensive, you know, all that cream the fruit. So, we would have done on a Sunday, you know, the apple tart, the rhubarb tart, an apple sponge, so apple on the bottom, and maybe a wee bit of lemon in there, because mommy loved lemon and then some sponge over the top, and rice pudding. Oh, rice pudding with a wee bit of nutmeg and a bit of vanilla.
CK: So, is your rice pudding cooked on top of the stove? Was it in the oven? How do you make rice pudding?
CD: in the oven
CK: So, how do you make an apple? What’s an apple tart like?
CD: So, my granny always did hers on enamel tinned plates, or a glass plate, a Pyrex plate, so a lovely, rich shortcut pastry on the bottom. And then she used to do a mixture of stewed apples and raw apples. Or she would do stewed apples, but not cook them down too much, so you still had wee chunks of apple in there, right? And just sweet enough, but not too sweet. Put that all onto your short crust pastry. And then, if it’s Halloween, you wrap up your your silver coin, and then you put your rich short crust pastry over the top, crimp it and then a wee hole in the top for the steam some egg wash over the top and sprinkle with caster sugar so it glistens when it comes out of the oven. Oh, my word is delicious. I’m actually salivating now.
CK: Well, yeah, I’ve said for 40 years, apple apple pie or apple tart, is the highest expression of the culinary arts, because, oh, if you get it right, great. If you don’t get it right, it’s, it’s not great, you know, I don’t know. I just, I need to move or something. It’s just like everything you talked about is right up my alley. I love to bake. And you tell a great story as well.
CD: Oh, thank you. But it’s like when you go right to someone’s house for tea. You never walk into a house in Ireland without being offered a cup of tea on something nice to eat. My daddy always used to say a cup of tea is awful wet without anything else, isn’t it? And that would be his thing. So, so you’d always have a piece of tart or a bun. And it doesn’t matter how many houses you went to in the day, you had to have something, you know, and just that really lovely sense of, you know, come in, you’re right as in, come in through the door your right side. Come in. Have a cup of tea. Sit down. And they’d say, give us a while o your crack. And you’d sit and have a wee chat with them. And it was lovely. It’s, it’s a lovely thing to do, yeah,
CK: Well, I don’t know whether I should be happy or depressed right now. I think a little bit. I mean, you’ve given me hope for the future, but I’m now depressed about everything we’ve lost in the past. Cherie, thank you so much. I you know, this has just been absolutely charming, and I just love the book The Irish Bakery. Thank you.
CD: Thank you very much indeed. I’ve really loved chatting to you. Thank you.
CK: Yeah, my pleasure. That was Cherie Denham, author of The Irish Bakery, Cherie mentioned that she scores a cross on the top of her soda bread to let the fairies out, so they don’t jinx your loaf. Well, here are some other food superstitions. In China, you never gift a knife since it will sever your relationship. The ancient Romans thought that witches could sail on eggshells and sink ships, so eggs were often prohibited on board. Parsley is rife with superstitions. The Greeks thought that the herb was grown from the blood of a baby, and in England, it was taboo to plant parsley, because you would be transporting sorrow. But my favorite superstition is from New England and is perfectly aligned with the dour character of my part of the world. If you find a hole in a loaf of bread, it means that someone will die. But on second thought, when it comes to bread, maybe I’ll just stick with the Irish who are trying to let the fairies out. I’m Christopher Kimball, and this is Milk Street Radio. I’m joined now by Rose Hattabaugh to talk about this week’s recipe, spinach and ricotta dumplings in tomato sauce. Rose, how are you?
Rose Hattabaugh: Good. Chris, how are you
34:56 CK: I’m good. My favorite place in Rome. Isn’t that a great way to start a conversation is Antico Falcone, which is out of the center. It’s a more residential area. The chef is ____He’s actually originally from Egypt. Yeah, you know, it’s a very simple dining room, very modern, and the food is similar. It’s very simple but perfectly executed. So the dish I just fell in love with is palini alverde. These are ricotta spinach dumplings served in a very quick tomato sauce, and they were light. And, you know, it doesn’t sound special, but just one of those dishes you really want to have in your repertoire. But I came back and said, Rose, let’s give this one a try, and we had some problems, right?
RH: Yes. I mean, like you said, very simple ingredients, just basically what you put inside of a ravioli, ricotta, spinach, whole eggs, a little salt and Parmesan. So, it sounds really easy, but they just kept falling apart every time we tried to poach them. So, one of the things we realized is that the ricotta that we have here in the United States is very different from what you had in Italy. It’s a lot more watery. We found that if you had a ricotta that had stabilizer in it, it wouldn’t hold together at all. It put them in the water, they completely fall apart. So, there are other recipes that include a little flour, and so we ended up having to do that. So, we drained the ricotta to get a little firmer consistency, and also added flour, and that seemed to do the trick.
CK: So, I think he cooked his in a minute or two, but I think ours took a little bit longer, right?
RH: Yeah, if we found that we had to refrigerate ours to hold them together when they were boiled. So, we refrigerate them for about half an hour, and then they take about eight to 10 minutes to cook all the way through.
CK: And the last thing is, you know, tomato sauce is very often in Italy or made in about 10 minutes. It’s not like it’s cooked all day. So, this is another super fresh, super-fast tomato sauce that I think just highlights the fresh taste of tomatoes. It’s got nothing else in there, essentially.
RH: Oh, really simple, yeah. You just sauté a couple of cloves of garlic in oil, add your whole peeled tomatoes, crushed up, a little little basil few minutes on the stove, and that’s it. It’s really clean and bright. It’s perfect with these. Palini,
CK: Yeah, this is a recipe everyone should have. So, spinach and ricotta dumplings and tomato sauce. Palini al Verde, straight from Antico Falcone in Rome. Rose thank you.
RH: You’re welcome, Chris. You can get the recipe for spinach and ricotta dumplings and tomato sauce at milk Street radio.com
CK: You’re listening to Milk Street Radio coming up the very best way to roast a chicken. I’m Christopher Kimball, and you’re listening to Milk Street Radio right now. My co-host, Sara Moulton and I will be answering a few more of your cooking questions.
SM: Welcome to Milk Street. Who’s calling?
Caller: Hi this is Maurice from Pennington, New Jersey.
SM Hi, Maurice. How can we help you?
Caller: For a few years now, I’ve been making gravlox at home, and it’s a great thing. It’s sort of like a bit of a commitment, but it’s really easy. It comes out great. I’ve got all this nice homemade gravlox. My question is, what other fish could I cure in the same way, like salmon’s great. But if I wanted to try something else, do you have any ideas or sort of like, what should I be looking for is, like, fat content in the fish, or is there something else, yeah, that it could be cured at home.
SM: You want a fattier fish you’ll just have a much better texture and flavor. So, you know, Arctic char, mackerel, trout,
Caller: Mackerel, okay
SM: If you can get really fresh blue fish. I mean, blue fish has a bad rap, because it’s very high in fat and so it can get quite funky. But if you have it fresh, it’s absolutely delicious. And it would be a good candidate here.
Caller: That’s actually a great idea. We do get fresh blue fresh in New Jersey. You know, they fish it off the coast and you can get it. And we love eating that cooked. My wife likes that a lot
CK: And mackerel, if you get really fresh, mackerel is not nearly as strong as if it’s not really fresh, because most people go mackerel. Is that expression, oh mackerel. (But holy mackerel.0 If it’s very fresh, it’s good. I don’t know about, I mean, Sarah said trout. I don’t think about trout as being a fatty fish. Trout not a fatty fish.
SM: It is a nice, firm fish, though trout
Caller: Trout is really similar to salmon. But my worry is the trout, the filets are small, so it’d be like hard to get a good
CK: yeah, it’s not thick unless you could find a 15-pound trout. I don’t think so.
Caller: I’ve tried wild salmon, which was too lean,
CK: Yeah, it’s very lean. Yeah. I fish for a wild salmon up in Canada, and the flesh is almost white in when the ice goes out in April and May, it’s very lean. It’s totally different than what you think of as salmon, yeah,
Caller: We still ate it, but it wasn’t satisfying in the same way as gravlax
SM: but meanwhile, Chris, you know what we never did define what gravlax is. Maurice, do you want to tell us what it is, since this is your baby
Caller:
Sure, it is a cold cured fish. So, what I do is I get two sides of salmon. I usually just get farm raised salmon from the supermarket, cover it in a mix of brown sugar and kosher salt. Put some roughly chopped dill all over it. Maybe splash it with some gin or vodka. You wrap it tightly in plastic wrap, and you put it in the fridge on a tray, and turn it every 12 hours, keep some weight on it, you know, maybe a heavy cookbook or something, and it cures in the fridge. You lose a lot of liquid, but it’s just a beautiful, buttery, succulent fish. My kids like it, and it’s way more affordable. It’s very expensive to buy, but if you make it yourself, you know it’s more reasonable.
SM: Well, that was a beautiful summary of a recipe. You did a beautiful job there’s (it’s poetic) somebody could make that based on what you just said. Very impressed.
Caller:
Yeah
CK: Maurice, thank you. It’s been a pleasure.
SM: Yeah
Caller:
Thank you so much. Thanks for take care.
SM: Okay,
CK: This is Milk Street Radio looking for some dinner inspiration. Well, please give us a ring. Anytime. 855-426=9843 one more time. 855-426-9843, or please email us at questions at Milkstreetradio.com. Welcome to Milk Street, who’s calling?
Caller:
this is Marjorie. Elsen.
CK: How can we help you?
Caller: Well, I was just curious about when something calls for buttermilk. Are there occasions when you have to use buttermilk, or can you, in fact, sometimes use kefir, for example, instead of buttermilk. I know you can put lemon in milk, but that’s not the same thing. But are there times when, when it calls for buttermilk that you have to depend upon buttermilk?
CK: It’s so weird. You called with this question, because we just tested this, so you came to the right place. This will be the world’s shortest call. The answer is yes. Oddly enough, you know, cultured buttermilk is essentially fermented milk, and that’s what kefir is. It’s fermented milk. So, they’re really not that different. You know, they’re both fermented milk. So, it turned out we loved it, and it was great. So yeah, I mean, they really are totally interchangeable. Adding lemon juice to milk, I’ve read that, and that just doesn’t work very well. So, Kefir or buttermilk are essentially the same, more or less chemically. So yes, go ahead,
Caller: Wonderful. The particular brand that we like doesn’t say kefir. Is that how you pronounce it? But is that the same? Say if you had a very liquidy yogurt, would that be equivalent?
CK: Sure. I mean, I’ve used yogurt to substitute sometimes for sour cream, or, you know, thin it out for buttermilk. Yeah, probably. But kefir and buttermilk are absolutely interchangeable.
Caller: Well, that’s wonderful news. Okay, Sara, do you have any?
SM: No, no, no, listen, I didn’t test this recently in my home kitchen, so I don’t know. I just learned something too along with Marjorie, good to know
Caller: Okay
CK: Thanks for calling.
Caller: Thank you very much. Bye bye,
SM: Bye bye.
CK: This is Milk Street radio. Now it’s time to check in with our friend Alex Ainoux. Alex, how are things going in the City of Light?
Alex Ainoux: Very busy Chris, how are you?
CK: I’m good.
AA: So, I want to tell you about a very, very Parisian, very French thing today. I want to talk about roast chicken. (Okay) and the roast chicken over here is an institution. It’s a celebration. It’s like a It’s almost like a ritual that every family has for Sunday lunch. It’s the classic, you have to have roast chicken. Otherwise, not Sunday anymore.
CK: I didn’t know, actually, that was such a big tradition in Paris
AA: There is no family that will not serve roast chicken for Sunday lunch
CK: Okay, but now you’re going to tell me, over six hours that it’s a very precise French method of doing it right.
AA: Of course, (of course). I, like you, could possibly imagine that to make roast chicken, you just place a chicken in the oven, and you roast it. And yet, if you do this without paying attention the meat, especially the white meat, is going to be dry. It’s going to be stringy, possibly the dark meat might be undercooked. The skin is never going to be crispy. It’s going to be soggy, pale, the flavors are going to be blend. You might go as far as doing even further mistakes, like over stuffing the cavity of the chicken, or even under stuffing it. You can see that there are so many pitfalls. So let me guide you through what I do to get the absolute best roast chicken for Sunday dinner. So first of all, I always start with meat that is at room temperature.
CK: How long do you have to let this bird sit on the counter.
AA: Usually, I let it sit on the counter for an hour, an hour and a half, so it warms up a little bit, okay, it warms up a little bit and it just allows the meaty to cook a little more evenly. (Okay) you’re correct. I would have to let it on the counter for more hours in order for the whole bird to be at room temperature. But still, I found out that it is helping. It’s not just a myth. So, then I season it very generously with salt. I almost over season it. I found that salt really makes a difference when it comes to crisping up the bird at the end, I obviously massage the bird with a bit of oil, and I add dried herbs inside the cavity. I’m not a big fan of stuffing the bird too much, because I feel like it’s preventing the heat from circulating inside and out easily. I feel like if you other stuff the bird, usually you end up with an uneven cooking that’s that’s my findings anyway.
CK: Well, it also slows you have to cook the stuffing till it comes up to temperature, right, like 160 degrees, which means you have to overcook the breast meat to get the same thing up to 160 right?
AA: Yeah, I forgot I was, I was chatting with a new, completely seasoned chef.
CK: Yeah, who do you think you were talking to here? Come on.
AA: Apparently, I had forgotten a bit, yes, but, but still, I do add, you know, a bunch of dried herbs, maybe one or two wedges of lemon inside, but then I place it in an open pan. And the difference that I’ve got compared to many methods that I’ve read online is my cooking process. So usually, I do a cooking in two stages. I do first a slow cooking, like 300 degrees Fahrenheit for about an hour, an hour and a half, and I’m just looking to have some even doneness. This is like the first stage of cooking where I’m getting the heat inside the bird everywhere. Then I move on to a stage two, where, instead of having a slow cooking I’m going high heat finish, and I increase the temperature almost to the max of my oven for 10 to 15 minutes. And this time, I’m not looking for evenness anymore. I’m looking to crisp up the skin. I’m looking for texture. I’m looking for also color, because I want a deep golden brown in order to, you know, to excite all the appetites around the table. So, this is my two-stage cooking, and I think it makes for a very special bird. I don’t know how you cook yours.
CK: Well, I just came up with a new technique, which I’ll share with you. Well, you know, old, old bird, new tricks. I figured out that the dark meat, the legs, you know, if you cook them to 175, they’re still gnarly because they have connective tissue intendents, and it’s it’s really unpleasant. So, I, I take off the legs, I take off the wings, and I leave the breast, both parts whole, and put that in a 425 oven on a rack and take the breast out when it’s 165 right? And then if I need to give the legs more time, although they will get up to about 200 by the time the breast is 165 but I really want to scorch the legs, so you really get it cooked. But that’s just the personal thing.
AA: I mean, that sounds like a pretty technical recipe that you’re following because you have to remove the breast, and it’s almost like you’re cooking everything separately, almost
CK: Yeah. But the interesting thing is, the legs actually do cook in about the same amount of time as the breast, because the breast is bigger, right? So, it takes some more time, (you’re right). And so I don’t know that’s kind of my new thing, but I like your technique. I totally agree. 300 and then high at the end,
AA: I might give your technique a try. Is some someday, but at least I can share with you the result of my technique. Usually I get a juicy, tender meat, and it really keeps the flavor the skin, it’s crispy, it’s golden, and then obviously, I’ve got a few complimentary aromatics, you know, coming from the herbs and a bit of lemon. Overall, I’ve got this caramelizing, inviting smell, dark, concentrated juice at the bottom of the pan, which I then use, obviously, to baste the chicken a bit. I feel like my recipe is the closest I could get to a rotisserie chicken, which is, I’m not going to lie, like the gold standard for me, like the fondest memory that I’ve got is my mom going to an open-air market. And on every open-air market here in France, you’ve got a butcher shop, like a mobile butcher shop, who sells rotisserie chicken. And it’s almost impossible to beat them, but my recipe will get you the closest.
CK: I have a suggestion you and I should found the international chicken roasting Culinary Olympics, (yes, yes_. And we should have people from all over the world. I will and just immediately, yeah, I think because almost every culture does this in one way or another.
AA: I would love that man. I would love that. I would love to confront my skills to other chefs and to see what techniques they’ve got to make their bird a little more crispy, a little more juicy. Yes. I mean, so you find the competition, you send it over and, I’m in, I’m game done,
CK: Alex. Thank you very much. The best way to roast chicken in Paris and in Boston. Thank you.
AA: Thank you.
CK: That was Alex Ainoux, host of Just a French Guy Cooking on YouTube. That’s it for today. To hear all of our episodes. Head to Milkstreetradio.com or wherever you get your podcasts, to explore ilk Street and everything we have to offer, visit us at 177Milkstreet.com. There, you can become a member. Get full access to every recipe, standard shipping for the Milk Street store and more. You can also learn about our latest book, Milk Street Bakes. Can also find us on Facebook at Christopher Kimball’s Milk Street. On Instagram at 177 Milk Street, we’ll be back next week with more food stories and kitchen questions and thanks, as always, for listening.
Christopher Kimball’s Milk Street Radio is produced by Milk Street in association with GBH co-founder Melissa Baldino, executive producer Annie Sensabaugh, senior editor Melissa Allison, senior producer Sarah Clapp, Associate producer Caroline Davis with production help from Debby Paddock. Additional editing by Sidney Lewis, audio mixing by Jay Allison and Atlantic Public Media in Woods Hole Massachusetts. Theme music by Toubab Krewe, additional music by George Brandl Egloff, Christopher Kimball’s Milk Street Radio is distributed by PRX.
