Christopher Kimball: This is Milk Street Radio from PRX. I’m your host Christopher Kimball. Judith Jones had an illustrious literary career, editing some of the greatest writers of the 20th century. She was also famous for taking risks.
Sara Franklin: She was assigned to write rejection letters, and she took it upon herself to rescue manuscripts out of the slush pile. One of them being the Diary of Anne Frank
CK: Judith also championed another book on the brink of rejection, Mastering the Art of French Cooking.
SF: When she wanted to publish that book, there was no space for cookbooks and literary publishing. And she really understood that she could do something very different and very artful.
CK: Later on, in the show how Judith Jones transformed cookbook publishing and made Julia Child a household name. But first, we’re diving into a particularly infamous event in Boston’s history. Joining me now is Steven Puleo. He’s the author of the book Dark Tide, the Great Boston Molasses Flood of 1919. Steven, welcome to Milk Street.
Steven Puleo: Thank you, Chris. Thrilled to be here.
CK: If you live in Boston, as I do, you’ve heard of the great molasses flood. But for the rest of the world, what happened on January 15, 1919?
SP: So, on that day, right around noontime just after noontime, a huge molasses tank in Boston’s North
End, filled with 2.3 million gallons of molasses collapses, disintegrates, essentially, causes a vast amount of damage, 21 deaths, 150 injured, enormous property damage along Commercial Street in Boston’s North End. There’s an overhead train trestle that gets severed, so some of that steel gets picked up by the molasses wave. So, some real terrible damage deaths and bad injuries.
CK: But this the part of this that really strikes me is the tsunami wave, you right, reach speeds of up to 35 miles per hour. So, most of us think of a tank bursting, you know, there’d be leakage and could be a foot or two of molasses. But this but this could just describe it in a more detail because this was something quite different.
SP: Sure. So when the tank disintegrates, you are correct. The wave starts out at about 35 feet high comes out at about 35 miles an hour, levels off at about 20 feet high and maybe about 160 feet wide. That just literally scours the Commercial Street waterfront.
CK: So why molasses? So, this goes back to the 18th century. Why? Why were these huge tanks of molasses, obviously used for rum, but it had lots of other purposes, right?
SP: Sure. So, I mean, the molasses industry in Boston goes back, you know, 350 years, you know, baked beans, Gingerbread, rum, as you say, but later was distilled into industrial alcohol in peacetime and used for things like lacquers, and dye and turpentine and things like that. But during wartime and this is, during the First World War, when this tank is constructed, molasses was distilled into industrial alcohol and then further processed and used in the production of munitions. TNT, nitroglycerin, molasses was a protected war industry. So, the company that owned the tank, United States Industrial Alcohol had as its big customers, the French government, the British government, some of the large munitions producers. And then when the US gets into the war in 1917, the US government becomes a huge customer of United States Industrial Alcohol. So, molasses steamers would bring raw molasses up from Cuba and Puerto Rico in the West Indies. You know, with 600,000 700,000, sometimes a million gallons of molasses in there holds and the molasses will be stored in that tank for a period of time and then transferred to the distilling plant in East Cambridge about a mile away. So
CK: So, the problem was they had to build this huge tank. And you write that it was a rush job because of the huge volume of molasses coming in. So why was it a rush job and what problems did that create?
SP: Yeah, I think there’s a couple of problems that it creates. One is it had to be rushed because United States industrial alcohol had a tanker coming up from Cuba that was going to arrive on January 1st 1916 and so, during the fall of 1915, construction was rushed to completion. The steel that was delivered was below specifications. The project was overseen by the financial director of US Industrial Alcohol the treasurer basically who had no engineering and no architectural experience. And then a tank was also improperly tested. It was supposed to be filled with 50 feet of water to test it, at least for leaks, if not for weight, and it was only filled with six inches of water, it comes out in the giant court case later, it’s so a whole host of problems with the construction of the tank. There were so many leaks in this tank, that children who lived in the North End would go down to the tank site and scoop up the molasses that had leaked with pails, you know, and brought them back to their homes. Workers at the DPW yard would hear the tank moan and groan when when the molasses was delivered. So, there’s this foreboding notion that something’s not quite right with the tank. And, you know, on January 15th, that proved to be true.
CK: So okay, but why did everything go wrong with this particular tank? Just because of that rush deadline?
SP: I think mostly the rush deadline and again, the tank was overseen by somebody who had absolutely no idea about anything to do with construction.
CK: But why? Why was he in charge?
SP: Yes. I think US Industrial Alcohol because of some of the quotas that they’re facing from the government. cut corners. I don’t think there’s any question about that. And so, the treasurer Arthur P Gel, who’s clearly the villain of the book takes virtually no precautions. In fact, when one of his employees reports to him that the tank is leaking and things might be dangerous, decides to paint the tank from a steel blue color to a brownish red color. The color of molasses just kind of camouflage those leaks. So, I think you had this almost perfect storm of you know, bad materials, shoddy construction rushed project, no good oversight, poor testing. And you ended up with this disaster.
CK: How did the newspapers like The Globe at the time deal with this? I assume this was fodder for the press for a long time.
SP: Sure. Yeah. You know, for a full week, maybe a little over a week. The flood knocks off the front page, the oncoming Prohibition Amendment and knocks the Treaty of Versailles off the front page to to end World War One.
CK: So, 21 dead, lots of injuries, massive destruction. And now Boston’s got to clean up the mess. I don’t think you know a shovel is going to do it. So, what did they try to clean it up and what actually worked.
SP: So that afternoon, you know, firefighters hook up poses to, you know, municipal hydrants and regular water doesn’t do much good as that molasses does start to become viscous and thickens. So finally, one enterprising firefighter has the idea that perhaps saltwater, the brine from salt water would be enough to start to cut the molasses and it could be washed away. And that’s exactly what they did. They pumped millions of gallons of saltwater, from Boston Harbor, wash much of the molasses most of the molasses into the harbor, the harbor is stained brown for months afterwards. But it’s the salt water, that becomes the trick that allows most of the masses to be cleaned up.
CK: So, so anarchist, so I guess one of the theories, especially by the company itself, felt that there was a bomb or there was it wasn’t their fault, it was anarchist at work.
SP: Sure. So, the anarchist movement at this time is very violent. anarchist had blown up munitions plants and other government buildings. And there were lots of anarchist in the Boston area, the Italian anarchist movement kind of had as its de facto headquarters, Boston’s North End. And so, it provides a really good circumstantial case in the in the civil lawsuit that follows for the defense for the company, who claim that an anarchist put a bomb in the tank, and therefore they should be absolved of all liability. The only problem was they present almost no evidence of any kind of bomb throughout the entire trial.
CK: So, this trial lasts six years or whatever. So why did it last that long?
SP: Yeah. So, the trial lasts about five years, about 1000 Witnesses 1500 exhibits 25,000 pages of testimony. It’s an enormous trial. It is the first use of expert witnesses on each side, like chemists and metallurgists, and architects. There are 119 plaintiffs. So, yeah, it’s very involved. It’s one of the largest class action suits in Massachusetts history stoll.
CK: So, what happened, I assume the company was found liable.
SP: So, the company is found liable. But you know, it’s an interesting assumption you make because it really was the first time that a large United States Corporation was held liable in a civil suit. And one of the things that I think impressed me going through the research is the way that the judge he logged in, I would say, bent over backwards to be fair to the plaintiffs in this case, there would have been no outrage, had he ruled in favor of the company. You know, these were people of the poor working class, it would not have been something like today where you would be shocked if a company you know, was found not liable.
CK: Did this have any impact after this in terms of the molasses industry in terms of construction in terms of anything else going forward?
SP: Absolutely. So, the molasses industry itself in Boston, the US industrial call closes its plant in December of 1919. It basically, not completely, not totally, but basically ends 300 years of molasses trade in Boston. But more importantly, I think the whole relationship between big business and the public and government changes after this decision. There are far more laws, statutes, regulations imposed by government on big business, the entire building construction standard industry that we’re used to today, architects need to show their work. Engineers need to sign and seal their plans, building inspectors need to come out. All of that is as a result of the great Boston molasses flood in 1919.
CK: Steven, thank you. I’ve heard of the molasses flood and now I actually know something about it. Thank you.
SP: Thank you so much, Chris. I enjoyed it.
CK: That was Steven Puleo. He’s a Boston based historian. also, author of Dark Tide, the Great Boston Molasses Flood of 1919. Now it’s time to answer your cooking questions with my co-host, Sara Melton. Sarah is of course, the star of Sara’s Weeknight Meals on public television. Her latest book is Home Cooking 101.
SM: So, Chris, you told me recently that you’ve gotten back into baking bread again, and I was just wondering what was the inspiration?
CK: Long personal story, but every Sunday, I’m trying to make a new bread recipe. But one of the things we learned recently was so interesting was that we made a ____ which is a Turkish flatbread, that’s actually about two or three inches high, great bread, but they make a sponge, essentially, you know, a cup of flour, a cup of water and the yeast, and they let that sit for just half an hour. Like I often do it overnight, but just half an hour, and then you mix them the other ingredients and you knead it etc. Making that 130-minute sponge at the beginning made a huge difference in the texture of the final bread. So as just a sort of generic tip for bread baking, a cup of flour, a cup of water, and then the yeast, you could add a little bit of if you had any sweetener in there, you know food for the yeast, mix it up, let it sit for half an hour. Then add the rest of the ingredients and go ahead and make the dough. We tested that and just half an hour made such a big difference. (Wow). It’s an instant sponge kind of deal. And it was much better texture. So next time you make bread. Just have that extra half hour or just start and you’ll actually come up with better loaf. That’s pretty cool.
SM: Good to know. (yeah) All right. Let’s take a call. Welcome to Milk Street who’s calling?
Caller: This is Tamara from Austerlitz, New York.
SM: Hi, Tamara, how can we help you today?
Caller: I love almond flavor. And I’m very successful at making pound cake, almond cookies, etc. Except when I get to cherry almond granola. I’ve added tablespoons of almond extract. I’ve added almond paste, marzipan. And I can never get that almond flavor to come through.
SM: First of all, so when you use the extract and you’re baking, you use a good quality extract?
Caller: I do
SM: And you’re very happy with the results. It really does taste almondy Correct.
Caller: Exactly.
SM: You know these extracts are very volatile. And the one thing we know about meaning in terms of their flavor. You always add them at the end, right? And you don’t want to leave the lid off. When you bake a granola, you bake it in one layer on a sheet pan, you know so there’s all this exposure to air so I wonder if it sort of dissipates the almond extract. Have you ever tried using almond butter in your granola?
Caller: No, I have not tried that.
SM: That’s, I don’t think it’s volatile,
CK: but it’s very thick. So, what do you do?
SM: You warm it up
CK: And then add
SM: And maybe warm it up with whatever sugar you’re adding
CK: Mix it in a bowl with a oat or whatever.
SM: Yeah. What do you think about that, Chris?
CK: Well, I’ll have a quirky answer. In Middle East you can find Mahlab m-a -h-l-e-b. It’s the ground kernels of like, I think it’s made from the pits of cherries. Oddly enough. It tastes exactly like almonds. And it’s a powder. It’s one of my favorite little tricks, because you can add it to all sorts of things, and it gives you a nice flavor. I find almond extract to be pretty strong. And I don’t love the flavor of it. The mahlab is much more subtle. That might be the thing that would work. And I totally agree with Sara, that the volatility of an extract in a hot oven is just going to dissipate. And also, it’s a really cool ingredient. I mean, you can put it in with flour, you can put it into a pie filling. It’s just really cool.
SM: Where do you find it? Chris?
CK You can buy glass jars of it online. It’s sort of like almond flour
SM: That would be less volatile. I would think in a granola
CK: It would be less volatile. Yes.
Caller: Right. Do I add it after I bake my granola?
CK: You’re going to toss the oats with something right? Sugar, some butter, whatever. I’d just add it to that mixture, (right) Yeah, I don’t think you need to use a lot.
SM: If you want to try these two different methods and let us know how it comes out. We’d be very appreciative.
Caller: I will definitely do that. Thank you so very much.
SM: Okay, thank you. Bye.
Caller: Goodbye.
CK: This is Milk Street Radio. If you need help in the kitchen, we’re ready to take your questions. Give us a ring anytime. 855-426-9843 that’s 855-426-9843 or email us at questions at Milk Street Radio.com Welcome to Milk Street who’s calling?
Caller: Hi, this is Zachary Dexter calling in from Texas.
CK: How are you doing? Good. How are you?
Caller: Doing well doing well
CK: How can we help?
Caller: I was thinking about making like a béchamel sauce for breakfast. And I wanted to know any tips on tempering those eggs in there.
CK: You mean Hollandaise or béchamel?
Caller: I do mean Hollandaise.
CK: Okay, you’ve tried to make it and have had a problem or you want a simpler method or ?
Caller: A simpler method every time I go ahead and try to get it done all the eggs end up turning into scrambled eggs instead of tempering correctly. I want to know if aside from just changing the heat how do you go about that.
CK: Well, I’ll let Sara go into detail on the classic methods. Since that’s her turf, I would use the blender method, which is the yolks, the lemon juice in the blender for a couple seconds and slowly pour in the melted butter to that
SM: hot butter though
CK: and do it very slowly. But Sara can take you through the
SM: I don’t know it sounds, no It sounds like Zachery you’d prefer the blender method, because that is less scary, but I will take you through what I used to do because I really love Hollandaise, even more like Bearnaise, which is Hollandaise with tarragon in it, but I would do you know reduction with shallots and white wine and cook it down till there’s just a couple tablespoons of liquid then combine it with some egg yolks and put it in a bowl metal bowl, set over a pan of water and whisk it like crazy. Meanwhile, I’ve cut up a whole bunch of butter into tablespoon pieces. And so, I cook the eggs first in this double boiler situation the water shouldn’t be boiling the eggs shouldn’t get too hot, you should every so often stick your impeccably clean finger in there to make sure that the egg mixture is getting hot. And then when it’s thickened and warm very warm. Then you start adding the butter a couple tablespoons at a time. Once the butter is just barely melted you add two more and the reason, I like using whole butter as opposed to melted is whole butter has a lot of water in it which keeps the Hollandaise hydrated and light and fluffy. And I keep doing that till I’m done add salt pepper, squeeze of lemon and then you can keep it warm in a thermos, but I think even Julia Child did the blender method every so often.
CK: If she can do it, we can do it. Yeah.
SM: Yeah. So, and the main thing as you’ve already discovered is you don’t want to cook the eggs to high heat because they will curdle but you can’t do that in the blender method.
CK: So were you doing this the way Sara just suggest that on top of the stove. Yeah,
Caller: Yeah, I was trying to do a double boiler message and I don’t have a thermometer at home so what I assume is just get the water up to boiling and then leave it simmering and then go from there but from what I found is even simmering, cook the eggs to fast
CK: Well, you should make sure that the bottom of the inner saucepan is not sitting in the sitting in the water that could be your problem.
SM: And also I never use a traditional double boiler I put a metal bowl over a saucepan because then you have much more control because the trouble with the double boiler is they have straight sides and you can’t get into the corners you can’t see what you’re doing but if you have a metal bowl also as I said your impeccably clean finger in there to see what the temp is you know when it’s getting almost hot and it’s thick, is when you start adding the butter and the butter will cool it down immediately. You know you get it to that point you’ll be good. If you don’t cook the eggs til they thicken and get warm, then the whole thing will not emulsify because you need to get them cooked enough. But I think you know if you want to do it the traditional way just try using a metal bowls opposed to a double boiler make sure the one underneath doesn’t touch and add the whole butter to it in tablespoon amounts as soon as it gets thick,
Caller: That’s very solid advice. Thank you.
SM: Okay,
CK: Voila!
SM: Oh, there we go. Yes, I just came back from France too, so I feel very French right now Anyway, I love a really good Hollandaise or Bearnaise it’s just so good on so many things.
CK: Thanks for calling. Hopefully that helps.
SM All right.
Caller: Absolutely. Thank you both so much.
SM: Okay, Zachary, bye.
CK: This is Milk Street Radio coming up how publishing legend Judith Jones changed cookbook publishing forever. That’s after the break. Hey, this is Chris Kimbell, and I need your help. We’re working on a story about the battles we all have in our home kitchens. Maybe you’re tired of your partner telling you how to cook or maybe they always leave a mess. Or maybe you’re frustrated by your loved ones highly restrictive diet. We want to hear about your kitchen dramas from the biggest food fights to your everyday grievances. You can leave us a voicemail at 617-249=3167. 617-249-3167 or send a voice memo to radio tips at 177 Milk Street.com One more time, call us at 617-249-3167 or email us a voice memo at Radio Tips at 177 Milk Street.com Please include your name and where you’re calling from. Thank you. This is Milk Street Radio I’m your host Christopher Kimball, Louisette Bertholle, Simone Beck and Julia Child had done it. After five years they finally finished their 800-page manuscript on French sauces and poultry.
Julia Child: We carried this manuscript to Houghton Mifflin. And remember it was a cold December day. Then we didn’t hear from them for about a month, got a letter back from them saying that it was just too much and too complicated. And they didn’t think anyone would ever want to do anything like that.
CK: They revised the book and still met rejection; it probably would never have seen the light of day. If it didn’t end up with another editor who immediately saw its potential.
Julia Child: Judith Jones had lived over in France where she was there actually the same time we were but we never met. And so, she persuaded Knopf to take the book, which was, must read The Art of French Cooking 101.
CK: This was the book and Julia Child was the person that Judith Jones had been waiting for.
Judith Jones: We had very parallel was, I was what was that? 9 8 or 9 years younger. But nevertheless, we both had that rebellion and food was our rebellion.
CK: That was Judith Jones recorded in 2013 Oral History conducted by Sara Franklin. Sara interviewed Judith over the course of six months and the two remained friends until Judith’s death in 2017. Sara joins me now to talk about her new book, The Editor: how Publishing Legend Judith Jones Shaped Culture in America. Sara, welcome to Milk Street.
Sara Franklin: Hi, Chris. Thank you so much for having me.
CK: You know most people in the food world know Judith Jones as the editor of Mastering the Art of French Cooking, but she was actually quite important in in regular literary circles. She edited the John Updike, Sylvia Plath, Anne Tyler. So how did she get started? I think she got started back in the 50s. Right?
SF: Even earlier than that. So, she was actually a college student at Bennington in Vermont. And she was offered an internship at Doubleday which was badly in need of editorial staff because all the men were off at war. And so, Judith was brought in at 17 years old and she was put to work right away editing manuscripts with no training, so she actually began in the mid 40s.
CK: And early on, I gather, she was treated like a secretary, especially at Knopf. So, it took a while for her to get to the point where somebody would actually listen to her about acquisitions, right?
SF: That’s right. I mean, there’s quite a bit of time in the middle here. So, she left for Paris in 1948. And in 1950, a Doubleday outpost opened in Paris. And because she had done some time in the New York office, she was hired as the secretary of Francis Kay Price. And she took it upon herself to rescue manuscripts out of the slush pile, she was assigned to write the rejection letters for a number of manuscripts that her boss had already rejected. And she took the Diary of Anne Frank, which had already been published in French and German at the time with her over by the fire.
Judith Jones: I couldn’t reject it without looking at it, and particularly, because they used that face on the cover. And you know, I kind of did things behind Frank’s back a little bit
SF: And when her boss returned, she stood up and said to him, you have to publish this book. And he said, Are you crazy, that book by the kid? And she said yes. And the rest is history of course, it was a global publishing phenomenon and remains one of the best-selling books of all time. So, from a very young age, she was a person of great ambition, and also incredible ingenuity.
Judith Jones: Part of it is, it’s that wonderful sense of freeing yourself and finding your own world. And I think food led me there.
CK: So how did Judith get interested in food and make her open to Julia Child,
SF: Judith grew up loving to eat, and Judith’s mother just hated that because Judith’s mother thought that food was something you ate, because you had to, but never something you should enjoy or talk about. I mean, she was really Judith described her as kind of a high wasp. But her father was this country guy from Vermont, who loved to drink and loved food. And Judith really got that from him. And then she and a future roommate of hers in Paris, began a sort of dinner party salon underground restaurant and served dinner to 20 or so people who would come and sit at little tables collected from around the apartment in the dining room. So, Judith was really a self-taught cook. And that was another thing that really resonated with Judith, about Julia Child is neither of them had grown up cooking, learning as girls how to cook at the elbow of a mother, they really learned how to cook as young women, and they came to cooking because of the sensuality and pleasure of it.
Judith Jones: You never could have selled the French people this bill of goods about the poor little woman mustn’t get her hand smelly. That cooking was demeaning. Cooking was what you did, and you you enjoyed it, and you talked about it. And it’s lusty and I can remember sometimes being invited in Paris, to someone’s house for dinner, we’d be at the table three hours. But that just wasn’t in the certainly the the Anglo-Saxon element in America.
CK: You know, I’ve had a few minor interactions with Judith Jones over the years. We were going to go to lunch one day, at Knopf, I met her in her office. and Edna Lewis was sitting in the chair across from her desk, who was just absolutely, I mean, she was queenlike I think is the best way to she had a way of carrying herself and speaking that was just regal. And I walked in. And she seemed very surprised to see me she completely forgotten about having lunch. And I was just some business guy in a bowtie who had a cooking magazine. And I think she wasn’t being rude. I think she just was used to dealing with people on her level from a literary point of view. But I so admire her career. And what she did with Julia. I mean, she was just brilliant. And I also love the fact that she, you know, as you explain, she stood up for herself and made a career at a time when it was it was not easy, right?
SF: That’s right. And I think she didn’t only stand up for herself but but much more than that she stood up for the kind of storytelling she believed in, you have to remember that when she published Mastering the Art of French Cooking, there was no space for cookbooks in literary publishing. And she really understood that she could do something very different and very artful by bringing literary rigor to cookbooks, to their thoroughness, to the voice in which the writer was speaking. And being able to work across genres, fiction, nonfiction, poetry, and cookbooks gave her a great understanding for humanity and storytelling, regardless and in spite of genre.
CK: The thing that’s so great about that book and Julia and Judith is they worked on the book, and it wasn’t about making money. It was about doing the book a great service and doing it properly. And that serious of intent, which is just lost today, on 99% of all cookbooks, right?
SF: That’s right. I would agree with that. And taking cooking seriously, if you think about the late 1950s and early 1960s, especially in upwardly mobile, white America, cooking was not being taken seriously. In fact, women in particular, were really being urged to step out of the kitchen, and adopt labor saving devices, and ready-made foods. And so, Judith and Julia together really pushed back against that notion. And we’re making a case for sophisticated, laborious cooking, but also that the kitchen could be a place of power.
Judith Jones: I think that when Julia published that first book and really came across on television, she started awakening the way we cook. She often said to me, Judith, you and I were born at the right time. But she’s zeroed in on it. She said, and I said this in a different way. If I love this so much and want to learn there are other people like me.
SF: I mean, how much more radical can you be than to put a middle-aged menopausal woman on television and she becomes the international hero of sophisticated home cooking, and joyful eating.
CK: Yeah, I think that’s something I’ve never thought about before. It’s really an important point. Julia as an icon, of the sensual, you know, take back, take back sensuality in your life movement was Julia. (Yeah) So the original title the book, I did not know this was French Recipes for American Cooks.
SF: Yes, that’s right
CK: So, Judith gets the manuscript script. She starts with boeuf bourguignon.
Judith Jones: I used the boeuf bourguignon as an example because first she told what kind of meat to use, which is so important. What kind of fat to use and doing the mushroom separately in the little onion separately, it was the best boeuf bourguignon you ever had
CK: I loved some of the comments. The back and forth between Judith and Julia, you say that Judith wrote to Julia and said, “I felt that there was a lack of certain hearty peasant dishes”. (That’s right.) I love this and Julia writes back. Perhaps Americans think French peasants are more peasanty than they are real peasants boil everything. Like that sounds so much like Julia Child.
SF: I think Judith and Julia really considered one another equals and so as author and editor, they were able to push back against one another. And there are these fabulous letters, where they are just sort of complementing one another’s adeptness precision and dogged attention.
Judith Jones: I had tremendous admiration for her because she knew what she was doing and why. And she was a wonderful teacher. I didn’t feel afraid of her because I felt that she appreciated me because I was so enthusiastic, and she used me as kind of as a guinea pig.
SF: Julia from Europe would send recipes over to Judith in New York and say, now I would like you to go out to the supermarkets, not a gourmet shop, but a regular supermarket and see if you can find this type of mushroom, this type of flour. And if the answer was no, Julia would take the recipe back and revise it so that to your quote unquote average home cook could prepare the recipes in Mastering the Art of French Cooking, as it eventually became titled.
Judith Jones: We went back and forth about the title there because they had some horrible titles like French cooking for Americans, I mean, or, or silly things. But finally, I said, I think that it should be a continuing process. The mastery of French Cooking is too scary. But mastering your and these letters go on and on. It’s an invitation. Yes. And it’s a continuing process which it is, and Julia wrote back. I love the title. I love the gerund.
CK: So, in the 70s she really came of age as a, you know, top cookbook editor, James Beard, Madhur Jaffrey, Claudia Roden, Edna Lewis. And I love I love this story about Edna and the squirrels maybe you can tell it.
SF: So, Edna Lewis and Judith Jones began working together in the early 1970s. When Edna Lewis was on the tail end of writing a cookbook with Angeline Peterson, who was a young woman of some means in New York City. And so, they had a meeting and Judith said to Angeline and Edna, well, will you please send me your idea for our next book, it sounds like you have one and she thought it sounded phenomenal. It was stories of Edna Lewis’s childhood in Freetown, Virginia. It was incredibly sensual and elegiac; it was written about a town that no longer existed. Freetown no longer existed at the time. And Judith was very interested in this project. But very, very quickly, she realized that of Angeline Peterson was getting in the way of Edna Lewis’ singular voice, her very, very lyrical voice and her clear memories of her childhood. And so Angeline Peterson, to her credit, agreed and bowed out of the project. And Edna Lewis and Judith Jones together, worked on the book that became The Taste of Country Cooking. And it became this incredible historical document and, and cookbook recipe document that we have today.
CK: And the squirrels?
SF: And the squirrels I got so off track there. The squirrels. So, it was after The Taste of Country Cooking had been published and Judith had Edna Lewis over to her apartment, as she often did with her cookbook authors to have dinner. And at one point, Edna Lewis was talking about a squirrel stew that she grew up eating and said, you know, gosh, I wished Judith you could taste that stew, that squirrel stew that we used to make. And Judith said, well, I would love to taste that that would be fantastic. And Edna Lewis who much like Judith, once she got an idea in her head was not to be kept away from it, wrote to her brother, and said, I need you to go out and shoot some squirrel and Fed Ex it to New York.
Judith Jones: So she called her brother to send, Fed Ex these little dead creatures, so I did have to skin and prepare them and I made squirrel stew. And they were just it was just delicious.
CK: So, what what was Judith, I mean, who was Judith Jones personally, what what was she like on a personal level.
SF: I knew Judith Jones at the very end of her life. So, when we first met, she was 88 years old. It was January of 2013. And I was sent on a sort of professional blind date by the Julia Child Foundation, who knew that she had just retired from a more than 50-year career at Knopf and they wanted to collect her oral histories. And so I went to her apartment, she opened the door I did not realize she was tiny, five feet tall. Remarkably elegant. She was wearing pressed slacks and a pressed blouse and pearls of course an Upper East sider and she ushered me into her kitchen which was really unfussy. She had her spices in hand labeled peanut butter jars. And her knives were sort of scattered about on different parts of the wall, but it was useful. It was a room that you could tell was regularly used. And to me that was quite representative of who Judith was as both an editor and a person. She was very, very pragmatic. She was quite frugal. She was an incredible sensualist. She was a lover of poetry and music. And she was also really mischievous, which is something about her that really deeply surprised me when I met her. She would crack dirty jokes, and she would mock people in the food world in particular, she really didn’t have any interest in the foodie world. Her word at the time. She thought that it was a rather catty world, and everyone was a little obsessed with themselves. And she was really interested in integrity and doing a thing well.
CK: Yeah, that that was my impression of her was the commitment to excellence. Excellence before all else, right? (Yes) Sara it’s been a pleasure. And thank you so much.
SF: Thank you so much for taking the time, Chris.
Judith Jones: Pleasure, that’s what I think we need. Pleasure in doing something well and doing it a little differently. This year has been my first year of really being at home. And it’s different because sometimes, oh, I have a whole day where I’m just working on things for myself. And I begin to think around four in the afternoon, I never think too far ahead. But I start sort of thinking about what I’m going to make for dinner and I get kind of excited, recharged and I just can’t imagine going in and heating up somebody else’s cooking.
CK: That was Judith Jones from her oral history with Sara Franklin. Sara’s book is The Editor: How Publishing Legend Judith Jones Shaped Culture in America. You’re listening to Milk Street Radio coming up we reveal the world’s greatest grilled ham and cheese sandwich. That’s after the break. I’m Christopher Kimball and this is Milk Street Radio. Do the French do grilled ham and cheese better than anyone. Well, I went to Paris to find out. I’m the cheese monger, I designed and manage this Croque-Monsieur. Laurent Dubois runs the cheese shop inside the ____ department store and gave me a lesson on making Croque-Monsieur. He pulled out one of his favorite cheeses Comte.
Laurent Dubois: That’s kind of the secret to the quality of the Croque-Monsieur we use a really high quality comte. The comte comes from a spring summer production it is very fruity but melt in the mouth texture
CK: Now let’s head into the kitchen with Lynn Clark to discuss our recipe for Croque-Monsieur at Milk Street. Lynn, how are you?
Lynn Clark: I’m doing well. Chris, how are you doing?
CK: Pretty good. I went to Paris to figure out how to make grilled cheese Croque-Monsieur this year. So I went to Laurent Dubois master fromager. And he showed me how to do it. And then we brought it back and we played around a little bit. But boy, I have to say it’s it’s simple, but it’s a noble enterprise. (Indeed) So tell us about this recipe.
LC: It’s sort of a modern take on Croque-Monsieur which is you know, grilled ham and cheese coated in a béchamel sauce. So, the first thing we did was skip the béchamel which is thick and flowery and kind of heavy and it kind of overpowers the rest of the things that are there. And instead we’re using sort of a cheese mixture. It’s creme fraiche, and then grated Gruyere, Conte any sort of a French kind of alpine cheese, and then just a little bit of seasoning salt and pepper and nutmeg and Dijon mustard. For a little bit of sharpness and all of that richness,
CK: You know I have to just say that the part that we did back here, instead of béchamel as you said creme fraiche and Conte or Gruyere that was really the big difference for me because that it’s easy to do. And you don’t get stuck with sort of an old fashioned béchamel.
LC: Exactly. It’s like highlighting the things that you’re there to eat which are the cheese and the ham, right. And so ours is a triple layer sandwich so you’ve got thin slices of bread with that cheese mixture, ham, you know, middle slice of bread, more cheese, more ham, all of that gets put actually in the oven instead of on a griddle or in a pan which means you can make four of them at the same time which is great. I love not having to be a short order cook. And so, they go in the oven. bread is buttered it gets nice and brown and then you flip it over. And then the very last step is adding a little bit of that cheese mixture on the top and popping it under the broiler which we have to watch very carefully because it goes from perfectly brown and gooey and delicious to burnt very quickly. But when it gets that great color on it, it’s just adds great flavor. It’s really nice and melty but it doesn’t overpower the rest of the sandwich like a béchamel might do. And it truly is the ultimate grilled cheese sandwich.
CK: Yeah, I made it actually was kind of lousy supermarket white bread. Don’t ask why. And it actually turned out pretty well. Because the flavor is so great. And as you said you really have to watch it in the oven because the edges can get overcooked pretty quickly.
LC: It’s really important to spread that cheesy stuff. All right to the edge. Yeah, exactly. Yep.
CK: Oven baked three-layer Croque-Monsieur sandwiches. I think this is you know, the Blue Ribbon number one grilled ham and cheese. It’s fabulous. Lynn Thank you.
LC: You’re welcome. You can get the recipe for oven baked three-layer Croque-Monsieur sandwiches at Milk Street Radio.com
CK: You’re listening to Milk Street Radio next up my co-host, Sara Moulton and I will be answering a few more of your cooking questions.
SM: Welcome to Milk Street, who’s calling?
Caller: Hey, this is Grace Diablos. I’m calling from Sherman, Connecticut.
SM: Hi, Grace. How can we help you?
Caller: Well, I’m calling because we have these wonderful neighbors next door neighbors who own cheese and wine shop. So, we’re very spoiled. And they’re very good to us. They’re always having us over and getting us things when we need it. And they have access to the most wonderful products. So, I’m kind of stumped about how to entertain them. So, I would love to invite them over. So, they can take a break. And we can be the host, but it’s so intimidating. So, I was hoping to get feedback from professionals like yourselves about, you know, how you would like to be catered to potentially?
SM: Well, here’s the thing, Grace, I’d be happy if my next door neighbor had made me a peanut butter and jelly sandwich.
CK: Yes, I agree.
SM: I just want somebody else to cook for me. Okay. So, let me ask you, do you enjoy cooking?
Caller: Yes, we do. We do
SM: You don’t understand they’re going to be so grateful that you cooked for them? Because I imagine not very many people.
CK: Nobody ever invites them over.
SM: Yeah, nobody ever invites me over. And so, I you know, I would say that you should just make what you like to make, no matter how humble if you think it’s humble. Don’t try to make something that’s out of your wheelhouse. Make something you feel comfortable with. That you can make ahead perhaps so that you can enjoy your guests. And just relax about it
CK: You know what, I totally agree with Sara. In fact, there’s a couple who lives not too far from us. He’s a great cook. Terrific cook. He came over I made hot dogs on potato rolls.
SM: You made hot dogs? Well, no.
CK: Well, no. He said, You know, why don’t we just come over let’s do hotdogs. I said fine. So, I did hotdogs. I did make some homemade ice cream to jazz up dessert. But I just made hotdogs, you know, and hamburgers. And we had a great time because nobody ever invites him over. So, I just do one thing, do a soup, do a stew, whatever it is one thing make it ahead. No last minute cooking. Buy a nice baguette make a simple salad. Forget about dessert.
SM: or buy dessert
CK: or buy dessert. I mean, just don’t.
SM: Don’t sweat it. They’re going to be so happy you’re entertaining them. I promise you
Caller: All right.
CK: And don’t do I remember, like 30 years ago, another couple invited me over for brunch. And they must have made 20 things. And I felt so bad because they’d spent all this time and effort you can’t possibly enjoy 20 different dishes. Right? They were infused with this fear of not pulling out all the stops. So yeah, just a soup, a stew. Something simple on the grill, whatever.
Caller: Yeah. Okay, that’s great and very doable.
SM: Yes, yes,
CK: They will be thrilled. All right. Take care.
Caller: Okay. Thank you so much. It’s been a pleasure speaking with you both.
SM: All right.
Caller: Thank you. Bye.
CK: This is Milk Street Radio. Sara and I are here to save you from impending culinary disaster. Give us a ring at 855-426-9843 that’s 855-426-9843 or email us at questions at Milk Street Radio.com
SM: Welcome to Milk Street. Who’s calling?
Caller: This is Julie from Watertown, MA.
SM: Hi, Julie. How can we help you today?
Caller: I have an enchilada issue. When I make my enchiladas how the tortillas always crack after they’re rolled up. And I’ve seen several different recipes that recommend different things. Either frying them in a little bit of oil, heating them up slightly in a pan. The best results I’ve had so far are heating them up very gently in the microwave. But that’s still not 100% predictable, I still end up with maybe 20% of them cracking. So, I was wondering, what am I doing wrong? And do you have any suggestions?
SM: I don’t think you’re doing anything wrong. I think they do just crack. So, first of all, don’t blame yourself. Although, you know, that’s what we all do. Yeah, the different methods the one that I usually use is damp paper towel or towel wrap the tortillas in it you know nook them till they’re pliable and then you might have to do them in a few stacks. Keep them warm in foil till you have them already or do them in stages and roll them then do some more and roll them. A lot of people char them which adds nice flavor. That is not what I usually do because first of all, I don’t have gas stove so people will literally put them over an open burner and get a little char on him and soften them up and then put them in foil. I guess there’s such a thing as a tortilla warmer I don’t certainly have one of those that you just keep in
Caller: I used to have one and then I made the mistake of putting it in the microwave and I destroyed it.
SM: Oh dear. Well maybe that would be if you make a lot of enchiladas you might want to get a warmer again so that you can transfer them to the warmer after you’ve softened them. The other thing is to put them into a cast iron skillet. Without the oil just dry and just toast them that way and then put them in foil or put them in the warmer. But let’s see what Chris has to say.
CK: Usually, I brush them with oil and then I put them on a baking, half baking sheet slightly overlapping, cover with foil into moderate oven for two or three minutes and that way you can do a bunch of one time. Also, they come out and they can stay under the foil until you’re ready to use them. If I’m just doing a few I’ll just throw them on top of the burner the gas burner and flip them with a tongs you know constantly until they warm up and become pliable, but I would use the oven method with oil the oil really makes them pliable. That’s my method. Okay, three minutes in a 350 oven with a foil on it. You’re good.
SM: Yeah, I think that’s smart.
Caller: That sounds good.
CK: Well now I’m hungry for enchiladas.
SM: I know really.
Caller: I have six pints of mole sauce in the freezer so
CK: What kind of mole sauce?
Caller: it’s a Rick Bayless recipe. I swear it made enough mole for his restaurant for a busy night. But it turned out to be good. It was dark, mole sauce.
CK: Well didn’t he win a cooking competition on television making a mole sauce? I don’t know he did.
SM: I don’t know. He should win everything. Probably. I love that man.
CK: Anyway, all right.
SM: Thanks, Kelly.
Caller: Okay. I’ve got some things to try now.
SM: Okay. Yeah, great.
Caller: Bye.
CK: Thanks to all of our callers this week. And every week we’d love to hear from you. That’s it for today’s show. You can find all of our episodes at Milk Street radio.com or wherever you get your podcasts. You can learn more about us at 177 Milk Street.com. There you can become a member get all of our recipe’s, access to all live stream cooking classes, and free standard shipping from the Milk Street store. You can also learn about our latest cookbook which is Milk Street 365 the All-purpose Cookbook for Every Day of the Year. You can also find us on Facebook at Christopher Kimball’s Milk Street on Instagram at 177 Milk Street. We’ll be back next week with more food stories and kitchen questions and thanks as always for listening.
Christopher Kimball’s Milk Street Radio is produced by Milk Street in association with GBH co-founder Melissa Baldino, executive producer Annie Sensabaugh, senior editor Melissa Allison, producer Sarah Clapp, Assistant Producer Caroline Davis with production help from Debby Paddock. Additional editing by Sidney Lewis, audio mixing by Jay Allison and Atlantic Public Media in Woods Hole Massachusetts. Theme music by Toubab Krewe, additional music by George Brandl Egloff, Christopher Kimball’s Milk Street Radio is distributed by PRX.
